Phantom Braking

[hatch]

Computers replacing humans - 100% agree with you. It's a long way off before AI can truly function like a human. But we're talking about driving a car. Which is a very limited set of operations for a human. There is a wheel we turn left or right, a pedal we push with our foot to make the car go faster, or remove our foot to make it slow down. Another pedal we push with our foot when we want to slow down more rapidly and stop. And a few sticks, conveniently placed around the wheel we can apply pressure to in order to indicate our intentions to other drivers. The vast majority of operations in today's cars are computer controlled, and happen autonomously. Air bags, seat belt systems, ABS, Traction-Control, AEB, headlights that turn on and off automatically, and even mirrors that adjust themselves when we reverse or a bright headlight hits them.

I'll give you an example - how many times have you gotten into the car, likely coming home from work, and are totally distracted with a problem at work - or perhaps something in your personal life. Or you take an important phone call (hopefully using your hands-free bluetooth system). Perhaps you were lost in the music and singing at the top of your lungs to your favorite album. Then you get home and think to yourself - how did I get home? You don't even remember driving home - you did it totally on your brain's version of "autopilot". The only time your brain snapped you back into driving focus is when something out of the ordinary happens. Someone slams on their brakes, a car makes an unexpected lane change, or a pedestrian jaywalks in front of you. That "autopilot" your brain had is where FSD is heading rapidly. It won't be long before it can handle the basics of getting you home, only asking for your attention when unexpected things happen. And then it will learn about those unexpected things, as fleets of vehicles report those events back to a central database that all cars can tap into and learn.

I appreciate your beliefs and your perspective. I really mean that. I'm not just blowing smoke. But again, i really think there are fatal flaws in your thinking (and Tesla's). You think you have a list of all the factors involved in driving. And.. you think it's just about driving.

First, i believe no one REALLY can have an all inclusive itemized list of all the abilities required for driving as WELL as humans. Not as safe, as accurate - i mean as WELL as a human - always as comfortable as desired by the passenger, sometimes breaking the letter of the law, sometimes going too fast, too slow, and other things we don't consciously recognize. Pure logic cannot simulate this.

Second, driving is not just about driving. The ability to drive comes from being born into this world and growing up and learning about our infinite world for the first 16 years of your life. If you were born in a car, and lived your whole life in a car, how well would you be able to drive when you turned 16? I say not very well. Driving is soo much more than driving. I know, i sound crazy.

Lastly, Tesla has done the impossible - making EV's successful - forcing the entire world's auto industry to go where they did not want to go - making a car so fun to drive that it changes so many minds about how much they are willing to spend on a car. They literally changed the course of world history. I won't even mention Space X, or Neuralink. So it's easy to make the intellectual jump from Tesla doing the impossible, to nothing is impossible for Tesla. I respectfully disagree. Some things are impossible, even for Tesla.

 

[sleepydoc]

I didn't make it clear, my apologies. I'm not saying that computers can handle it right now. Right now, it's like a child behind the wheel. But it can learn, and learn fast. Look at our world of technology and computer processing - now just go back 20 years. Heck, there is more computing power in your Apple iWatch than the entire Apollo moon mission. I'm not arguing that FSD is perfect right now. What I'm trying to convey is that the sentiment that "FSD will NEVER work" is just not realistic given our technological advancements. It was just a few years ago we developed a car's ability stay at the same speed, and keep itself in the middle of the lane. Then we were able to slow down and speed up the car while doing so. Now my Tesla can get me from my house to work without much intervention. A few days ago, for the first time ever for me, I let FSD (10.9) go from my office to my house (about 20 miles) with FSD all the way. It started on city streets for a few blocks, got onto the freeway, exited the freeway and went about 10 blocks to my house. It struggled a little on a few turns, made a few odd lane changes, which it just changed back. But overall it did it completely, and safely with no disengagements from me. Yes, it may have freaked out some drivers behind me (heck, it even had me cringe a few times - it gets awfully close to parked cars on residential streets) - which is why I have two large bumper stickers warning people behind me that I'm a self-driving test vehicle and they should use caution around me.

As you can read from my comments, I prefer logical arguments. I try to look at things from 30,000 feet - the big picture. So many people are black and white in their approach. "This will never work!" "It works perfectly, you're clearly an idiot" "Anyone that buys FSD is a moron and should have their licenses revoked" "Why does it still utterly suck at driving" So many passionate views, but not looking at the big picture.

Does FSD work perfectly right now? No. It's getting better - we can see the progress. Will FSD eventually work? Yes, very likely technology will catch up and allow humans to do other things with their time, while saving lives. Had one too many drinks at a company party? No worries, your car will get you home safely - someday. And the rate our technology is advancing, that someday will be sooner than later.

Just check out YouTube videos on the progress from FSD 9.0 to 10.10 (which is about 19 months). Here is a guy's channel that you can search for the various versions and see the progress over time:

https://www.youtube.com/c/DirtyTesla/videos

I love this exchange from the TV show "The West Wing", where the chief of staff, Leo, is trying to convince the president, Bartlet, that the missile defense shield will work. And the president thinks it will never work.

President Josiah Bartlet : I want to know, when you're pushing me toward the missile shield, it's not 'cause you want me to look strong on defense?
Leo McGarry : I'm not.
President Josiah Bartlet : Don't.
Leo McGarry : I'm pushing you toward the shield 'cause I think it works.
President Josiah Bartlet : Based on what?
Leo McGarry : Confidence. And the understanding that there has been a time in the evolution of everything that works when it didn't work.

so essentially you're saying "when computers are as good as humans at driving then they can replace humans.

Well, yes, that would be true. The question is when will that be? Ultimately we don't know. you can say 'look at how far computers have come in the last 20 years,' but the same could have been said 20 years ago.

From a practical standpoint they're nowhere near as good as humans now and I don't see them being as good as humans in the foreseeable future so it's little more than a hypothetical question.

Driving home from Minneapolis this evening was a good example. It had snowed so the roads were covered with slush and you couldn't see the lines at all. plus there was some construction so the side of the road was barricaded off and the remaining lanes were narrowed. The next block was 'normal.' I had to look at the road. look at the width that wasn't blocked off, estimate how many lanes there were and estimate where I should drive in that space, then estimate where I should drive as I crossed the intersection. As I exited downtown to the freeway entrance ramp there was a fairly sharp turn that had a bunch of slush on it. I saw the slush and knew it would be slippery so I slowed down ahead of time to avoid sliding. A bit further on the road was wet but not sloppy so I sped up. How long before a computer can handle this situation?

 

[sleepydoc]

...and back to the topic at hand. I recalibrated my cameras to see if it would help. Driving on 394 coming out of Minneapolis this evening my car suddenly slowed down from 64 MPH to just under 50. (It probably would have gone lower but I hit the accelerator so I wouldn't get rear-ended.) It was a straight section of highway. It was nighttime but the lines were clearly visible. There were a few cars in the lane next to me driving at the same speed. There was no car in front of me for at least 300 feet. There was a car in the lane to the left traveling about 5 MPH faster just behind me in the lane to my left. Absolutely no reason to slow down. (and because knightshade will probably ask, no, I don't know if it used the physical brakes or regenerative braking but it makes no difference)

Later on, on an entrance ramp AEB alerted (several loud beeps and a red steering wheel on the screen.) the car slowed for a second, then, almost before I could look at the screen it turned off. There were no cars in front of me and no reason to brake. The interesting thing is cruise control did not disengage. Wouldn't you think that an AEB event should disengage cruise control?

 

[hatch]

...and back to the topic at hand. I recalibrated my cameras to see if it would help. Driving on 394 coming out of Minneapolis this evening my car suddenly slowed down from 64 MPH to just under 50. (It probably would have gone lower but I hit the accelerator so I wouldn't get rear-ended.) It was a straight section of highway. It was nighttime but the lines were clearly visible. There were a few cars in the lane next to me driving at the same speed. There was no car in front of me for at least 300 feet. There was a car in the lane to the left traveling about 5 MPH faster just behind me in the lane to my left. Absolutely no reason to slow down. (and because knightshade will probably ask, no, I don't know if it used the physical brakes or regenerative braking but it makes no difference)

Later on, on an entrance ramp AEB alerted (several loud beeps and a red steering wheel on the screen.) the car slowed for a second, then, almost before I could look at the screen it turned off. There were no cars in front of me and no reason to brake. The interesting thing is cruise control did not disengage. Wouldn't you think that an AEB event should disengage cruise control?

I know you're in an area with lots of messy weather. I have a good amount of messy weather at times also. Sorry if i missed this, but do you clean your cameras a lot? I'm just about to get my Model Y and this whole phantom slowdown thing has me anxiously on the edge of my seat. And realistically, i don't see myself cleaning my cameras.

My corolla's auto headlights used to work almost perfect. Now they don't really work at all. I'm sure whatever sensor is required for auto high beams, is totally crusted with salt. This is going to be my problem with the Model Y. I can't really be bothered with cleaning cameras all the time. So in essence it will be my fault when vision doesn't work.

 

[hatch]

It had snowed so the roads were covered with slush and you couldn't see the lines at all.

And i realize even if your cameras were pristine at the beginning, they were re-crusted soon into the drive. I'm pretty much resigning myself to the fact that TACC and AP just isn't going to work for me.

I'm assuming the performance of TACC and AP gets worse as the drive progresses in that kind of slop?

 

[Huskyf]

I can respect your way of thinking. My big picture 30,000 view though is a bit different from yours.

• Autopilot has been around for around 8 years
• It still is known to slam on the brakes when there's a shadow in the road
• It still is known to veer onto the off-ramp when it should be staying in the right lane
• It still sometimes slows the car down because it thinks the speed limit is 45 when it passes a Speed Limit 65 sign.
• It still sometimes hits the brakes when a car is in the lane next to you because it is close to, but not over the lane line
• It still sometimes hits the brakes when there is an oncoming vehicle which is clearly in its own lane
• It can't consistently figure out when to turn the highbeams on/off (ok maybe not technically autopilot, but still)*
• It has been known to crash into emergency vehicles
• It smashed right into the fake pedestrians in the AAA test.

That's just autopilot -- FSD is a whole different set of challenges and there are plenty of well-documented failures there.

Doesn't necessarily mean it'l never work. But I don't think Full Self Driving is even close to reality.

Re check in 3-5 months if no progres this year the focus is FSD only no new cars, no new projet oh yes one robot but the focuse is FSD

 

[JustJohn]

I'm sure this will get posted elsewhere but pretty relevant to the whole idea of getting computers to figure out how to drive like humans. Haven't watched the videos yet but it's a very interesting read: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/10/video-tesla-full-self-driving-beta/

This was actually a well balanced article beyond the click bait title. It is unfortunate that Tesla's focus has to shift from a market disrupting vehicle to address the poor marketing of a driver assist package that is optional. I think we wouldn't be at this point if the system hadn't been called "Full Self Driving." I looked hard at it as an option until joining the forum and seeing that it just isn't what the name implies.

 

[OncomingStorm]

And i realize even if your cameras were pristine at the beginning, they were re-crusted soon into the drive. I'm pretty much resigning myself to the fact that TACC and AP just isn't going to work for me.

I'm assuming the performance of TACC and AP gets worse as the drive progresses in that kind of slop?

this is why these threads are terrible and not useful at all for new people. your experience with AP / TACC will likely not be like any on here, you may have problems you may not but odds are you'll be good since only a very small number of people experience really bad phantom braking. i'm in MI and it's been a salty snowy hell here recently and while i do get car washes occationally (which cleans the cameras) i use AP every day even in conditions where i would have assumed it shouldn't work, hell there are times it gives me the icon to turn it on when no reasonable person would be using driver assist features due to the weather / road conditions.

reading through these threads on this board might give you the impression its an incredibly wide spread problem, however your real world experience is likely to be a few minor breaking events every so often with the rare but possible harder braking event. i maintain these happen primarily in high density situations (or at least when the road gets a little tight and visibility becomes harder and reaction times must be faster) so you can def anticipate when you are likely to have problems (tho it can be startling if your not prepaired).

 

[enemji]

The other day, I asked my MYLR/FSD to take me about two miles from one store to another. The route had two turns. At the first turn, FSD got into the right lane, put on its blinker, and then drove straight past the turn. That's one of those 6 basic functions - turn right - and it failed.

No one should be shocked by this, we know that FSD won't always be successful. But making a right turn successfully is a pretty basic function of FSD. And it does make quite a few of them successfully. But not all.

FSD is still working on how to handle those basic six functions. It's not even close to being able to evaluate the subtleties and nuances that we deal with every day while driving. I agree that it will get there eventually, but I think it has a very long way to go.

[Note: When I started writing this post, I had a lot more to say, but then realized that this is drifting pretty far from the thread's topic. Maybe it should be continued in its own thread.]

I remember the day when we built a factory that needed only 4 associates to run rather than 350 unskilled and skilled workers. It was chaos. The human factory made claims similar to what I am hearing here. 30 years later all of them humans have been replaced. If you ever seen videos of BMW or Mercedes manufacturing lines, that is what I am falking about. If you don’t know what to look for, let me know and I will post a YouTube video to show that.

 

[FastEddieB]

I made this mistake when my Model 3 was new.

An experienced user here pointed out to me that the manual states AP is only to be used on interstates and highways...where all the traffic is going in the same direction and there are no cross streets.

Using AP on a road with opposing traffic and cross streets is dangerous.

I just “graduated” from a 2018 Honda Clarity PHEV. The Tesla is superior in almost all areas.

But…

1) The Adaptive Cruise Control is useful on backroads in the Clarity, with very infrequent phantom braking. Living in semi-rural E TN, much of our driving is on 2-lane roads, and the inability to use cruise control on them is very disappointing.

2) The “Lane Keep“ function in the Clarity stays on through driver input and lane changes. It subtly nudges you back into your lane, even on twisty roads, kind of like power power steering. Having the Lane Keep function continually disengaging at the drop of a hat is beyond annoying and renders it far less useful.

As an aside, for right now we’re keeping the Clarity, but with used car prices soaring, we may very well take advantage of that and sell it in the near future.

 

[Gilliland]

I remember the day when we built a factory that needed only 4 associates to run rather than 350 unskilled and skilled workers. It was chaos. The human factory made claims similar to what I am hearing here. 30 years later all of them humans have been replaced.

That's actually pretty discouraging. An automated factory is a MUCH simpler environment. Geofenced, in an area designed specifically for automation, with no human drivers, only "trained" pedestrians, no kids, dogs, deer, potholes, weather, shadows that move with the sun, or any of a hundred other variables. And it still took them 30 years? Yikes! I hope it doesn't take Tesla 30 years to get this right.

 

[sleepydoc]

I know you're in an area with lots of messy weather. I have a good amount of messy weather at times also. Sorry if i missed this, but do you clean your cameras a lot? I'm just about to get my Model Y and this whole phantom slowdown thing has me anxiously on the edge of my seat. And realistically, i don't see myself cleaning my cameras.

My corolla's auto headlights used to work almost perfect. Now they don't really work at all. I'm sure whatever sensor is required for auto high beams, is totally crusted with salt. This is going to be my problem with the Model Y. I can't really be bothered with cleaning cameras all the time. So in essence it will be my fault when vision doesn't work.

And i realize even if your cameras were pristine at the beginning, they were re-crusted soon into the drive. I'm pretty much resigning myself to the fact that TACC and AP just isn't going to work for me.

I'm assuming the performance of TACC and AP gets worse as the drive progresses in that kind of slop?

The headlight sensor is typically on the dashboard so it should be protected, unless you have a bunch of stuff covering it. The rear camera does need to get wiped off or cleaned periodically in the winter, just like any car.

I wash my car periodically and wipe off the rear camera but that’s it. The primary front camera is on the windshield and cleared by the wipers, so that’s not an issue. The forward side cameras are on the B pillars. The only time I’ve had issues with them is with sleet, wet, sticky snow, etc. Then it’s not an issue because they’re conditions where you shouldn’t be using AP or TACC anyway. Last night it was no longer snowing when I was driving home. Highway was a bit wet but otherwise totally clear and the lines were clearly visible.

’phantom braking’ occurs in various degrees of severity and frequency. Some people never seem to experience it. (Persionally, I wonder if it’s not occurring or if they’re just ignoring/not noticing it.) The overwhelming majority of the time it’s just annoying. You’ll be driving along and the car will slow down for a second then speed back up again. No one knows what’s actually happening but it‘s at least similar to what you’d feel if you had full regeneration on and took your foot off the accelerator for a second or two then put it back on.

There are definitely times when it brakes harder and/or slows more but thankfully they’re less common. As I’ve said, if this was the ’state of the art’ with adaptive cruise control it wouldn’t be an issue, but the reality is it’s not. As I and multiple others have posted, virtually every other manufacturer manages to implement adaptive cruise with a significantly lower error rate (I’ve never experienced a phantom braking event in any other car I’ve driven with adaptive cruise, nor has anyone I’ve spoken with.)

 

[sleepydoc]

this is why these threads are terrible and not useful at all for new people. your experience with AP / TACC will likely not be like any on here, you may have problems you may not but odds are you'll be good since only a very small number of people experience really bad phantom braking. i'm in MI and it's been a salty snowy hell here recently and while i do get car washes occationally (which cleans the cameras) i use AP every day even in conditions where i would have assumed it shouldn't work, hell there are times it gives me the icon to turn it on when no reasonable person would be using driver assist features due to the weather / road conditions.

reading through these threads on this board might give you the impression its an incredibly wide spread problem, however your real world experience is likely to be a few minor breaking events every so often with the rare but possible harder braking event. i maintain these happen primarily in high density situations (or at least when the road gets a little tight and visibility becomes harder and reaction times must be faster) so you can def anticipate when you are likely to have problems (tho it can be startling if your not prepaired).

See my description above - not tight. Little traffic. Good visibility. Straight road.

I also had another event later on - I think it was triggered by a car approaching in the oncoming lane. The problem is this was a wide road that had a 15-20 foot median between the lanes, so if the computer thought the car was going to hit me then it was placing it at least 20 feet over from its actual position.

Last week I experienced it about every 10 minutes driving on an empty 2 lane road in broad daylight.

 

[sleepydoc]

I remember the day when we built a factory that needed only 4 associates to run rather than 350 unskilled and skilled workers. It was chaos. The human factory made claims similar to what I am hearing here. 30 years later all of them humans have been replaced. If you ever seen videos of BMW or Mercedes manufacturing lines, that is what I am falking about. If you don’t know what to look for, let me know and I will post a YouTube video to show that.

Would you mind posting a video?

There’s a big difference between manufacturing and driving: variability. By definition, manufacturing strives for uniformity - uniform starting materials, uniform processes and uniform final products. This is where machines excel, doing the same process over and over.

Driving is often the antithesis of that. The weather changes, roads change, traffic changes, even the abilities of the car can change. The area of driving that has been most successfully automated - highway driving is the area with the least variability.

Comparing a manufacturing plant to driving completely misses a multitude of critical differences.

 

[VanGuy]

Do you OWN a Tesla? Do you use the "autopilot"? I drive 500 miles a week on highways and I average 1 BFNAR (Braking for no apparent reason) per week. Its sever enough where I will shift lanes if someone is close behind me when I am on "autopilot"

How often do you slow down for something that ends up not being worth slowing down, per week, while manually driving?

 

[rishid]

I just got my MY about 4 weeks ago, about 800 miles on it. I mainly drive on a divided interstate highway. I get phantom breaking daily with light or heavy traffic, it very scary and unnerving. I am starting to realize that when I am on auto-pilot I am looking more in my rear view mirror than forward direction just in case there is a car close to me so I will disable auto pilot. I love the car but this "feature" is so terrible and wish they would spend some time attempting to improve it.

 

[JustJohn]

I just got my MY about 4 weeks ago, about 800 miles on it. I mainly drive on a divided interstate highway. I get phantom breaking daily with light or heavy traffic, it very scary and unnerving. I am starting to realize that when I am on auto-pilot I am looking more in my rear view mirror than forward direction just in case there is a car close to me so I will disable auto pilot. I love the car but this "feature" is so terrible and wish they would spend some time attempting to improve it.

You are not alone in that wish.

 

[VanGuy]

I think maybe he was being sarcastic and pointing out that many of us who complain about PB are simply told that PB isn't real, it's just letting up on the accelerator, if we think it slammed on the brakes we are just wrong because this one time this one guy measured something and it was only 0.2G, and therefore we are wrong, and if you are afraid of PB it's just like someone who is afraid of ghosts.

But I could be wrong .

My issue with PB is that people erroneously claim it's unsafe. They're conflating a feeling of frustration with real danger.

.2g decel is not going to cause anyone driving in a safe and responsible manner to be even remotely at risk of hitting you.

Yea, it's gonna be annoying.

Drive shotgun with a new driver and tell me you're comfortable with their choices of when to accelerate/decelerate. Hell, tell me the last taxi/uber you took didn't make you mildly uncomfortable with a few decisions.

 

[Dracaris]

The cake may be a lie, but phantom braking is real. Happens to us in our car. Wife refuses to use cruise control because she finds the car's behavior terrifying under those conditions. Won't even consider enabling non-FSD autosteer. She has concluded it's better for her to control the car herself. I'm a little more willing to keep trying the features out, but I can't argue with her point of view.

 

[sleepydoc]

2) The “Lane Keep“ function in the Clarity stays on through driver input and lane changes. It subtly nudges you back into your lane, even on twisty roads, kind of like power power steering. Having the Lane Keep function continually disengaging at the drop of a hat is beyond annoying and renders it far less useful.

Lane keep is a different feature than autopilot and so it operates differently. It’s essentially an ’assist’ feature that assumes you want to stay in the lane you’re in and kicks in as soon as it detects a lane but is also meant to be overridden and not have total control.

Autopilot, on the other hand, is designed to take total control. If you override it the car assumes you want it off and reverts to TACC. Some may argue that AP should automatically reengage but they’re both operating as designed, just designed differently.

Drive shotgun with a new driver and tell me you're comfortable with their choices of when to accelerate/decelerate. Hell, tell me the last taxi/uber you took didn't make you mildly uncomfortable with a few decisions.

So you’re saying we shouldn’t expect TACC to be any more competent at holding a car’s speed than a 15 year old? Actually the 15 year old would probably be better at it and not randomly slow down for no reason.