Phantom Braking

[Q-ship]

There are positives and negatives.

Positives:

• Active safety + TACC/AP can detect and respond to a lot more situations.
• Better lane keeping ability
• I think there is less hold the steering wheel nagging as it uses the interior camera to monitor the driver
• TACC will adjust set speed based on speed sign
• Can intermittently subscribe to FSD to see how it evolves first hand
• Comes with Sentry Mode and Dash Cam which are really cool
• Blindspot video feed comes up when hitting turn signal.

Negatives:

• No Auto Lane Change
• Autobrights come on when AP is activated. You can turn it off each time, but it's annoying.
• Tesla Vision hasn't reached parity with Vision+Radar like it still has an 80mph set limit
• More prone to slowing due to weather
• TACC adjusting to speed based on what it thinks is the speed limit can cause phantom braking.
• The fact that it responds to more situations means more phantom braking
• Terrible auto wipers
• The V11 UI is a pile of crap

I think what you'll find is that it will have more phantom braking, but it will be nuisance phantom braking where it will be annoying. I wouldn't say constant, but maybe 1 or 2 every hundred miles or so.

I personally wouldn't get another Tesla due to the lack of ability to report bugs or issues with nav/maps. There is a massive wall between Tesla and the customer. For me about 70% of the phantom braking issues that happen (on divided highway or freeway) are due the car slowing because it suddenly thinks its on a different road. So the root cause of a lot is the maps/navigation which should be easy fixes, but Tesla has no mechanism for reporting bugs/issues aside from the silly voice reporting thing.

Do you know if there is less phantom braking with FSD than with TACC or AP? My 2022 MYP has so many phantom braking incidents that TACC and AP are almost unusable. I just want a dumb cruise control at this point.

 

[DayTrippin]

I said "about", it isn't like I had a stopwatch ready to time it. All the people that will be left buying Teslas are the people that are so invested in it while the rest of us move on to cars that don't have these issues. Quit defending the indefensible at this point. It sucks, it as in issue. Tesla needs to fix it. Don't you have something better to do? You often have positive things to contribute you I think you are clearly on the wrong side of this issue.

Non Tesla Stans/Fanbois won't tolerate this sort of stuff. My wife is still gun shy of me using TACC to this day. I guess 20, 40, 50+ unexplained braking events are enough to put someone off riding in the car as a passenger. Especially when they have no freaking idea why the car abruptly slowed down with no warning and for no apparent reason.

There was nothing adjacent other than fields. No service roads, no oncoming vehicle, very WIDE divided highway. So if it is a map issue, it should be fixed on such a MAJOR interstate as I20. I am glad this issue has gained the attention of NHTSA. Maybe finally Tesla will take it as seriously as they should. If your car just randomly braked frequently when you used the cruise control, how happy would you be?

 

[Knightshade]

I said "about", it isn't like I had a stopwatch ready to time it. All the people that will be left buying Teslas are the people that are so invested in it while the rest of us move on to cars that don't have these issues.

87% YoY growth in sales suggests otherwise.

Also ranking #1 in owner satisfaction year after year.

You can find threads with a tiny # of owners complaining about phantom braking going back many years too. It's not new. But it's also not a major issue for most owners.



I'm not at all saying it doesn't happen. Just that the % of folks for whom it happens to the point it's a huge issue is obviously quite small.

The original Oct-Dec "surge" that made huge headlines was barely over 100 complaints. In a group of well over a million vehicles.

. If your car just randomly braked frequently when you used the cruise control, how happy would you be?

Like 80 to 50, and frequently?

I'd be very unhappy.

Mine doesn't' do that though, in tens of thousands of miles of driving it.

And from the admittedly poor data we have-- neither do those of the vast majority of owners.

 

[sleepydoc]

That ... I think is a matter of time. When the yoke only Model S demand wanes, they will introduce normal steering wheel.

Obviously it is more efficient to have less options.

I haven’t tried driving a car with a yoke - I could probably get used to it, but if the bonehead who thinks there shouldn’t be a turn signal stalk is still working I can guarantee I won’t be buying one.

 

[Raurele]

I don't know if the comparison is even necessary for most. If someone buys a BMW and is unhappy with the product, I'm not sure they'd feel much consolation knowing that other people on Tesla forums might be more or less happy with their product. However it might influence their buying decisions going forward.

But many people don't churn through vehicles at a quick pace and rather buy with the intent of owning for 10-15-20 years, so I think most are just concerned with the vehicle they bought.

Teslas are not built to be owned that long. Battery replacement costs are just too high. And unless you keep retrofitting things the tech won’t last that long. These are 5-8 year cars. Technology changes. These arent ICE cars that can just be easily fixed with new parts

I’m sure people will argue, but facts are facts. Look at old model S that can’t get new updates. That car is done.

 

[Knightshade]

Teslas are not built to be owned that long. Battery replacement costs are just too high. And unless you keep retrofitting things the tech won’t last that long. These are 5-8 year cars. Technology changes. These arent ICE cars that can just be easily fixed with new parts

I’m sure people will argue, but facts are facts. Look at old model S that can’t get new updates. That car is done.

..wut?

How many ICE cars get "updates" 10 years later?

Or even 1 year later?

Other than (usually for money) GPS maps, it's none of em.

Yet people still keep em a long time.

The vast majority of 2012 Model S Teslas remain on the road 10 years later. And still get updates too.

Tesla is still updating those TODAY

https://twitter.com/x/status/1494099189659316224

And they can even upgrade to the MCU2 computer, installed by Tesla, if they want to and get even more updates.

When's the last time an ICE car maker offered to upgrade the infotainment unit in a 10 year old car for you? Is it never? It's never right?


On the battery-There's plenty of folks getting 200-300k miles on the original battery and still holding a charge pretty well.

Facts are facts indeed.

Your post appears unsupported by any.

 

[rjpjnk]

Teslas are not built to be owned that long. Battery replacement costs are just too high. And unless you keep retrofitting things the tech won’t last that long. These are 5-8 year cars. Technology changes. These arent ICE cars that can just be easily fixed with new parts

That's a scary thought. Hope it's not true or I'm going to feel pretty stupid in 5 years for thinking a Tesla was a good choice. Guess that's the risk of being an early adopter.

 

[Raurele]

That's a scary thought. Hope it's not true or I'm going to feel pretty stupid in 5 years for thinking a Tesla was a good choice. Guess that's the price of being an early adopter.

they hold their value well. Better than any others. Trade it in after 3-5 years and get the newest model. Someone will buy the one you trade in and they’ll be happy. Tesla is 5+ years ahead of everyone. So in 5 years, everyone’s caught up. I want to stay ahead of others personally. It’s still the best car I’ve ever owned, but I put 40k miles on It annually. I’m not spending 10k on a new battery when I can put 5-8k down on A new one. Just being realistic.

 

[Knightshade]

they hold their value well. Better than any others. Trade it in after 3-5 years and get the newest model. Someone will buy the one you trade in and they’ll be happy. Tesla is 5+ years ahead of everyone. So in 5 years, everyone’s caught up.

I heard that in 2012. By 2017 Tesla had gotten further ahead.

People said it in 2017 too. It's 5 years later and legacy is still embarrassingly far behind.

. Just being realistic.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Raurele]

I heard that in 2012. By 2017 Tesla had gotten further ahead.

People said it in 2017 too. It's 5 years later and legacy is still embarrassingly far behind.




I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Realistic is subjective.

 

[robrich]

Been meaning to comment here on phantom braking. Seems like a month and a half ago, phantom braking was so bad that it made FSD unusable.

I have to admit that it seems to be much more infrequent during daylight drives over the last two or three weeks. I'm almost to the point of getting to enjoy FSD again, at least during daylight hours. I frequently take 3 hour drives on rural two-lane highways, and those seem to trigger the phantom braking the most. On my last long drive (Thursday), there were almost no phantom braking events.

Evening and nighttime though - different story. Still plenty of phantom braking after sunset unfortunately.

 

[Raurele]

Maybe we who experience phantom braking should reverse our thinking on the topic…maybe it’s a feature, a bit like shortened battery life on iPhones after certain software updates. Consider the upside: less time on the iPhone, less time grazing social media, less time with your close personal Netflix relationship, and so on. More opportunity to react with humanity around us. All good, right?

So to extend that clearly unassailable logic, assume we’re all on a Tesla transport vessel to Mars. In the openness of space enroute with very few obstructions of any kind in our path (save the occasional comet or space junk), we experience a massive jolt of phantom braking reducing our speed in a fraction of a minute from oh say 25,000mph to about 16,000mph. The 457 passengers and pets all have a simultaneous WTF moment, each (including the pets) submitting bug reports to TeslaFleet Command, massive hue and cry (okay, whining) about that last software update, the dangerousness of the feature, what happens to the vessel tailgating us 10,000 miles to our rear but on the same course, we’re all gonna die, etc., etc. The National Intersteller Transportation Safety Agency (NITSA) gets notified, issues a new requirement, and we have to enter a holding pattern above Mars to have software patches applied prior to landing. We learn current and patched software has and is consider Beta by the manufacturer. And on and on. This is not what we paid for and are asking when this will be fixed.

Come to learn after finally landing that our phantom braking experience was an appropriate vessel response to invisible tractor beams from an alien life force, so it’s all good and our anger turns to remorse for our negative actions and praise for Tesla’s incredible software design team.

Or not.

What a stupid hypothetical argument/bat *sugar* crazy scenario

 

[Supcom]

Evening and nighttime though - different story. Still plenty of phantom braking after sunset unfortunately.

Curious that my experience is opposite. Virtually all PB events I've had were in daytime with sunny skies. None after sunset. Fortunately, for me, the PB events have reduced drastically in the last couple months.

 

[sleepydoc]

That makes sense. That FSD beta issue would have created a spike.

infact it is possible that issue and its coverage made people report in larger numbers.

I guess only Tesla has the real numbers.

Except FSD is pretty limited in release and many of the complaints are areas that still use the AP stack, not the FSD stack. On top of that the issues predated FSD so I don’t think it’s to blame.

I’ve had FSD for a few/several months and can’t say that PB got better or worse with it. There was certainly no clear change for me.

i know 2 M3 owners who have used both the radar and vision only cars and both have told me their breaking issues have diminished greatly with vision only.

I’ve driven cars with both vision (2020 Subaru Foreater) and Radar (2011 Toyota Prius). Both handle adaptive cruise perfectly so it’s possible to use either system successfully, assuming you get the algorithm right. Tesla can’t seem to do that.

 

[sleepydoc]

but its not the same thing at all... traditional adaptive cruise control isn't looking for the car behind or to the side of you, its not predicting what someone 2 lanes away might do as well as 1000 other things its attempting to predict at any given time. yes a more dumb version of TACC will have less false positives but purely because its not looking for as much, it will also allow someone to PIT you out of the blue with no warning but i'm guessing that doesn't matter for your argument.

much like my analogy... ie a calculator is a "dumb" version of a computer.... all other versions of TACC are "dumb" versions when compared to a tesla

and yet all these ‘dumb calculator’ versions seem to work better than Tesla’s fancy algorithm. This is Adaptive cruise. It’s been around for a decade and it’s not rocket science.

Yet again I don’t care how the system is programmed. I care about results. Why do people feel so compelled to make a million excuses for a system that is flatly subpar?

 

[sleepydoc]

Teslas are not built to be owned that long. Battery replacement costs are just too high. And unless you keep retrofitting things the tech won’t last that long. These are 5-8 year cars. Technology changes. These arent ICE cars that can just be easily fixed with new parts

I’m sure people will argue, but facts are facts. Look at old model S that can’t get new updates. That car is done.

Lithium batteries can and do last longer than that. There are 10 year old teslas that still work perfectly, and the battery doesn’t fail instantly, it’s a gradual decline.

Also compare to other cars - how many updates does a 2014 Honda Accord get? (Hint: zero!)

 

[OncomingStorm]

I’ve driven cars with both vision (2020 Subaru Foreater) and Radar (2011 Toyota Prius). Both handle adaptive cruise perfectly so it’s possible to use either system successfully, assuming you get the algorithm right. Tesla can’t seem to do that.

again tho, not the same thing. my 1980 ford LTD w cruise control has 0 phantom braking ever in its billion mile history haha, but sadly that one metric doesn't make it better, nor does that fact somehow make the better system flawed, thats backward logic, new things create new problems.

and yet all these ‘dumb calculator’ versions seem to work better than Tesla’s fancy algorithm. This is Adaptive cruise. It’s been around for a decade and it’s not rocket science.

Yet again I don’t care how the system is programmed. I care about results. Why do people feel so compelled to make a million excuses for a system that is flatly subpar?

again, they dont work better. maybe they work better for YOU and if they do i struggle to think why you would be here lol. i mean really sell the damn thing you could make out like a bandit and ride off into the sunset in your Prius

seriously tho, i make no excuses for tesla, i try to remain objective however, all products have flaws and not all prodcuts work the same. i think the point people try to make is owning a computer on wheels is just a little different than owning literally anything else available and the comparison your attempting to draw is fundamentally flawed. effectively, no one is really arguing your point that the issue needs to be corrected but rather that problems like that are inherent to owning a vehicle of this type so yes there is some "expectation setting" that needs to happen... this is actually where i would find the biggest fault with tesla, simple education, here their record is frankly abysmal, their failure on this front is probably the biggest driver of customer dissatisfaction imho, but i digress...

 

[Xdama]

again tho, not the same thing. my 1980 ford LTD w cruise control has 0 phantom braking ever in its billion mile history haha, but sadly that one metric doesn't make it better, nor does that fact somehow make the better system flawed, thats backward logic, new things create new problems.


again, they dont work better. maybe they work better for YOU and if they do i struggle to think why you would be here lol. i mean really sell the damn thing you could make out like a bandit and ride off into the sunset in your Prius

seriously tho, i make no excuses for tesla, i try to remain objective however, all products have flaws and not all prodcuts work the same. i think the point people try to make is owning a computer on wheels is just a little different than owning literally anything else available and the comparison your attempting to draw is fundamentally flawed. effectively, no one is really arguing your point that the issue needs to be corrected but rather that problems like that are inherent to owning a vehicle of this type so yes there is some "expectation setting" that needs to happen... this is actually where i would find the biggest fault with tesla, simple education, here their record is frankly abysmal, their failure on this front is probably the biggest driver of customer dissatisfaction imho, but i digress...

The information from Tesla themselves is terrible at best. I have no problem with forums for enthusiasts of anything at all. However when a forum becomes the mainstay of information available for any product then the manufacturer of that product needs a big wake up call imo.
While Tesla is playing about with OTA updates adding games, lightshows & whoopi cushions other manufacturers are playing catch-up on things that actually matter. Personally I think once Lucid enter the fray fully I reckon Tesla will have a fight on there hands. Traditional manufacturers too will catch up if they aren’t careful. A lot more people are uninterested in FSD (certainly in UK) than are, it’s seen as a gimick by the majority of ICE drivers.

 

[OncomingStorm]

The information from Tesla themselves is terrible at best. I have no problem with forums for enthusiasts of anything at all. However when a forum becomes the mainstay of information available for any product then the manufacturer of that product needs a big wake up call imo.
While Tesla is playing about with OTA updates adding games, lightshows & whoopi cushions other manufacturers are playing catch-up on things that actually matter. Personally I think once Lucid enter the fray fully I reckon Tesla will have a fight on there hands. Traditional manufacturers too will catch up if they aren’t careful. A lot more people are uninterested in FSD (certainly in UK) than are, it’s seen as a gimick by the majority of ICE drivers.

agreed 100%... in fact i'd go so far as to say if they spent the proper amount of time and money on educating their customers they would eliminate 90% of these threads lol... if someone explains to you that it might occur and more importantly why its happening, things like phantom breaking are easily dismissed by most and the education factor would weed out those who are probably not good fits as tesla owners (i honestly think you need to have a better than average understanding of IT to properly use these cars lol or at least the willingness to learn). that said lol... and this is not a fan boy trying to give them an excuse, as a buisness owner, if i'm literally spending every resource i have available to me in order to ramp up production of my product and still failing miserably to meet demand its hard to see why i'd spend 1 red cent on anything else, pulling any money away from that objective has a huge opportunity cost for the, hopfully lol, more robust future.

i would differ a bit on the competition aspect, yes everyone and their brother is trying to capture tesla's success, but so long as they keep churning the code properly they should be able stay pretty far afield from any serious competition for the foreseeable future (at least in terms of a true self driving car, an argument could be made that this actually becomes less desirable as time goes on but thats another thing entirely lol). and keep in mind adding things like the lightshows and games and such, that takes basically 0 effort lol, a 12 year old could properly create the code base for those things in an afternoon so its not pulling any resources or anything, in fact i'd argue its one of the big selling points, all car makers could do this they just choose not to for various reasons typically unrelated to functionality of any kind, but rather they simply dont want to be subject to issues with things they cannot fix since they dont have the proper infrastructure in place to even do OTA updates, let alone actually make any base level changes to the car that way, so better to not add too many "frills" that might cause non-functional issues with the car.

 

[SilentWarp]

Been meaning to comment here on phantom braking. Seems like a month and a half ago, phantom braking was so bad that it made FSD unusable.

I have to admit that it seems to be much more infrequent during daylight drives over the last two or three weeks. I'm almost to the point of getting to enjoy FSD again, at least during daylight hours. I frequently take 3 hour drives on rural two-lane highways, and those seem to trigger the phantom braking the most. On my last long drive (Thursday), there were almost no phantom braking events.

Evening and nighttime though - different story. Still plenty of phantom braking after sunset unfortunately.

Your account is anecdotal, but it sounds like a result of the fact its run by cameras not radar sensors (which wouldn't care about ambient light). If it works better in the day time, then there ya go.