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Phantom Braking

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Just took our new (non-fsd) model 3 on its first road trip. I had an hour of non congested road to try out AP.

It the first 20 minutes it worked great. I was very hopeful. Then I got 4 PBS then a couple more later on. The car slowed down from 70mph to 50 at distinctly more then normal regen but less then slamming on the brakes. Each time I checked the dash and the posted speed limit was correct. In the end I still mostly used it but there were 2 times where someone was following too close and I got nervous. I would reposition the car to a different spot. It’s useful but flawed. (As compared to any driving experience I have had in multiple other cars. All anecdotal to me. But I make many decisions based on my personal experiences).

The dashboard monitor also froze during the trip. All of it. Left side, right side, the navigation stopped, the audio I was streaming stopped, blinker sounds stopped. I wait a couple of minutes and hard reset it while driving. A normal driver (Eg my wife) is not going to happy of the dash hangs on her. That is the type of thing that’s going to make her think her car, or the model year, is defective in some fundamental way.

After the hard reset the computer had reset the wipers to auto… which I never use because they don’t work well. They still don’t work well. Within a few minutes they were going full speed trying to wipe away the mist.

Basically the same experience for AP and wipers on both cars. My other car has never had the computer hang while driving so that was worse. I would suspect the low quality of the sw update is the blame but I’m guessing based on my years of software and hardware experience.

Otherwise the driver was smooth and comfortable. It drives great for me. If only they would improve the software quality the whole thing would be great.
 
Ignorance is bliss. This statement most definitely applies to the discussion at hand.

People with their limited abilities to sense danger on the roads are claiming to find fault in a system that is nascent but has a lot more data being made available to assess and determine a dangerous situation.
 
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Except that’s *not* the same thing. That was plain ol’ dumb cruise. Our 2000 odyssey has it and it actually has ‘failed’ once or twice. IIRC it just quit working until I turned off the car. Either way, Adaptive cruise is a totally different animal.
My point exactly, they are not the same thing so holding them to the same standard is nonsence. and i'd wager in the early days of cruise control many people refused to use as they didnt trust it and many people probably had very poor experiences with it, people hate new things lol
Why is comparing how well system performs its functions fundamentally flawed? Using your computer analogy, one could argue that because the computer is so much more advanced and complex and can do so much more then it’s ok if it has trouble doing basic arithmetic because it’s not a calculator. If the new system can’t perform as well as the old one then the old system was better.
Not trying to poke you but 100% incorrect. all computers have fault tolerances for invalid data/input and processors return junk data all the time, the more complex the system the higher the fault tolerance and the more the system is expected to be able to fill in the gaps when errors do occur.

ie... a computer will absolutely fail at basic math significantly more than a simple calculator if you look at errors per 1000 inputs or whatever metric you want to use. the computer is simply doing 1000000x the work so it can appear more reliable or however you want to look at that. and even then your computer could crash at any moment, when was the last time your calculator got a virus (lol this does actually happen) or simply didn't work due to anything other than power.

so again your argument is fundamentally flawed because tesla TACC and Toyota TACC are 2 wildly different products, like the calculator the Toyota is dealing with a MUCH smaller subset of data so yes you'll have fewer input/calculation errors but you also sacrifice functionality in other areas.
 
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Do you know if there is less phantom braking with FSD than with TACC or AP? My 2022 MYP has so many phantom braking incidents that TACC and AP are almost unusable. I just want a dumb cruise control at this point.

I'm not sure how that post ended up here as it was a response to someone asking about AP1 vs. basic AP/TACC of a Tesla with Tesla Vision.

I have experience with both so I shared the positives and negatives.

FSD (not the beta) will have more phantom braking events as its adding even more things that cause phantom braking.

Like NoA will slow your car down if it thinks the exit it needs to take is up ahead so its even more prone to PB if the maps are messed up. FSD also brings traffic light response which will cause additional phantom braking if it incorrectly thinks a light is meant for your lane.

If you're referring to FSD Beta once it hits a single stack than I can't answer that question. It will be interesting to see.
 
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Ignorance is bliss. This statement most definitely applies to the discussion at hand.

People with their limited abilities to sense danger on the roads are claiming to find fault in a system that is nascent but has a lot more data being made available to assess and determine a dangerous situation.
And this is patently wrong. It blindly assumes that a danger actually does exist and that the computer is always right. Musk himself has said that PB is a problem. If all the PB events were from some mystical ‘unseen danger,’ he wouldn’t have said that. We have plenty of reports of cars braking on wide open roads in clear conditions where any danger would be readily evident. Stop trying to spread this false excuse.
 
My point exactly, they are not the same thing so holding them to the same standard is nonsence. and i'd wager in the early days of cruise control many people refused to use as they didnt trust it and many people probably had very poor experiences with it, people hate new things lol
But you were the one to bring up the 1980 Ford. I’ve never compared TACC to ‘dumb’ cruise; I’ve always compared it to other adaptive cruise systems. Claiming I’m making a false comparison here because I point out your false comparison makes no sense.
Not trying to poke you but 100% incorrect. all computers have fault tolerances for invalid data/input and processors return junk data all the time, the more complex the system the higher the fault tolerance and the more the system is expected to be able to fill in the gaps when errors do occur.

ie... a computer will absolutely fail at basic math significantly more than a simple calculator if you look at errors per 1000 inputs or whatever metric you want to use. the computer is simply doing 1000000x the work so it can appear more reliable or however you want to look at that. and even then your computer could crash at any moment, when was the last time your calculator got a virus (lol this does actually happen) or simply didn't work due to anything other than power.
so again your argument is fundamentally flawed because tesla TACC and Toyota TACC are 2 wildly different products, like the calculator the Toyota is dealing with a MUCH smaller subset of data so yes you'll have fewer input/calculation errors but you also sacrifice functionality in other areas.
Well, a calculator is a computer, too, just a simpler one. What you repeatedly fail to realize is that IT DOESN’T MATTER! Tesla TACC and Toyota are not wildly different products; The two systems are attempting to do the same task. Why do you persist on creating some difference that doesn’t exist? Even if Tesla is using a larger data set, if Toyota is able to accomplish the same task with a smaller data set then that just means it’s a better designed system.

please, explain to me why it should matter to me as a driver using TACC how much data the system is or isn’t using. Why should worse performance be in any way acceptable just because Tesla has more sensors. Your argument is basically saying the car is a rube goldberg machine so it’s ok if things mess up once in a while and that is 100% incorrect.
 
It the first 20 minutes it worked great. I was very hopeful. Then I got 4 PBS then a couple more later on. The car slowed down from 70mph to 50 at distinctly more then normal regen but less then slamming on the brakes. Each time I checked the dash and the posted speed limit was correct. In the end I still mostly used it but there were 2 times where someone was following too close and I got nervous. I would reposition the car to a different spot. It’s useful but flawed.
useful but flawed is a very apt description and your story nicely illustrates what I said in another post.

If you say/accept that all systems are flawed then you are comparing not perfect vs imperfect (black vs white) but rather how imperfect they are. In 1 hour (actually 40 minutes) you had 4 PB events of varying severity, essentially averaging 1 every 15 minutes, or 1 event every 15-20 miles. Even the worst systems in other manufacturers don’t have an error rate anywhere near that high.
 
useful but flawed is a very apt description and your story nicely illustrates what I said in another post.

If you say/accept that all systems are flawed then you are comparing not perfect vs imperfect (black vs white) but rather how imperfect they are. In 1 hour (actually 40 minutes) you had 4 PB events of varying severity, essentially averaging 1 every 15 minutes, or 1 event every 15-20 miles. Even the worst systems in other manufacturers don’t have an error rate anywhere near that high.
“Had 4 events and a few more later on”. How in this sentence were you able to determine specifically 40 minutes? You might seem more credible without made up math data from assumption. Lol. A few of you are so committed to your mission of Being right you just start making up crap to feel important lol.
 
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Here is an example . Drove 2015 Caddy with their TACC to cabin this weekend. 430 miles round trip. Even with snow on the road for about 25% of the trip, where the center between the 2 lanes not clear, but lane we were in was clear, the Car did ZERO false slowdowns on cruise for the whole trip. So enjoyable!

My Experience has shown the Tesla X, with snow in the center of the road, slows multiple times every 10 miles. Not fun.
 
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But you were the one to bring up the 1980 Ford. I’ve never compared TACC to ‘dumb’ cruise; I’ve always compared it to other adaptive cruise systems. Claiming I’m making a false comparison here because I point out your false comparison makes no sense.

Well, a calculator is a computer, too, just a simpler one. What you repeatedly fail to realize is that IT DOESN’T MATTER! Tesla TACC and Toyota are not wildly different products; The two systems are attempting to do the same task. Why do you persist on creating some difference that doesn’t exist? Even if Tesla is using a larger data set, if Toyota is able to accomplish the same task with a smaller data set then that just means it’s a better designed system.

please, explain to me why it should matter to me as a driver using TACC how much data the system is or isn’t using. Why should worse performance be in any way acceptable just because Tesla has more sensors. Your argument is basically saying the car is a rube goldberg machine so it’s ok if things mess up once in a while and that is 100% incorrect.
i brought up the basic cruise control as a corollary to your comparison of tesla tacc to toyota tacc because the comparison is the same, they are 2 different products and cannot be held to the same standard.

i'm sorry you dont understand how the car works or what it's actually doing, clearly you are not right for a tesla. i say this earnestly, you should really consider just selling it and getting something that is more your speed. you will be happier in the long run and then maybe pick up a tesla in a few years once these issues are better (hopefully! haha)

the hard fact is ALL new tech brings problems, why do you think NASA uses 30 year old tech in their probes, that stuff is reliable as all hell and basically never fails because its had time to be proven and refined. whether you want to admit it or not tesla's tacc/ap is a COMPLETELY NEW product so yes it will have its share of issues since NO ONE has made anything even remotely close (that is currently available).
 
“Had 4 events and a few more later on”. How in this sentence were you able to determine specifically 40 minutes? You might seem more credible without made up math data from assumption. Lol. A few of you are so committed to your mission of Being right you just start making up crap to feel important lol.
he said he used TACC for 60 minutes and had no issues for the first 20 minutes. 60-20 = 40. It's very simple math if you bother to read his post.
 
i brought up the basic cruise control as a corollary to your comparison of tesla tacc to toyota tacc because the comparison is the same, they are 2 different products and cannot be held to the same standard.

i'm sorry you dont understand how the car works or what it's actually doing, clearly you are not right for a tesla. i say this earnestly, you should really consider just selling it and getting something that is more your speed. you will be happier in the long run and then maybe pick up a tesla in a few years once these issues are better (hopefully! haha)

the hard fact is ALL new tech brings problems, why do you think NASA uses 30 year old tech in their probes, that stuff is reliable as all hell and basically never fails because its had time to be proven and refined. whether you want to admit it or not tesla's tacc/ap is a COMPLETELY NEW product so yes it will have its share of issues since NO ONE has made anything even remotely close (that is currently available).
Comparing TACC to other Adaptive cruise is comparing two systems with identical functions. Comparing any adaptive cruise to 'dumb' cruise is absurd unless all you are trying to do is confuse the picture.

if expecting a feature to work at least as well as every other car on the road means I'm 'not for Tesla' then you're probably right.

I don't think you really understand how it works either. I don't say this as an insult - no one outside of Tesla does. you're hypothesizing about all the extraneous inputs confusing a complicated computer system and making it more prone to making mistakes but getting so caught up in the 'more complicated must be better' part that you seem to be oblivious to the 'making mistakes' part. Most significantly, you can't explain to me why any of it should matter.

I actually have an engineering background. I don't work for Tesla or in visual recognition, but I understand the issues. I also understand that the entire goal is to make a functional system. What I don't understand is you and others miss that point.
 
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I posted a similar comment in a different thread, but…
on a recent Toyota Camry rental their TACC and auto steer equivalents…radar based, were far superior to my beloved Tesla. Zero PB incidents. Car was also slow as a turtle in molasses but thats a different story!
That is a very telling statement, which I can confirm is also true for a 2019 Prius. I.e. vanilla old ICE Toyota tech is performing better, safer, more reliably etc. etc. than a brand new Tesla. Consigning our fancy new luxury 2x-the-price EVs to local errands because too unreliable to gamble touching Cruise for distance at highway speeds. The kind of humiliation I would heretofore only have expected from GM.
 
I meant your posts are blown up because they consume an inordinate amount of webpage space

This is mainly a combo of 2 things:

1) When I'm debunking factually untrue claims, I typically do so with sources and quotes to support the debunking. That takes up more space than the sentence or two of untrue claims I'm replying to-- as you might expect it should.

2) I try to consolidate my replies in a thread to a single post at a time, so instead of making 5 different shorter posts replying to 5 people I make 1 post replying to each of them. Seems cleaner to me and if more folks did that we don't end up with a bunch of posts in a row from the same person.


Tesla is a luxury brand, it is not an average brand. We can't hold Tesla up with BMW, Audi, etc and compare them as a luxury automaker and pretend their vehicles don't sell for luxury prices.

Tesla generally sells for lower prices than the comparable model from those brands, comparably equipped. So I'm not sure bringing that up helps your "teslas are expensive" argument- in fact it seems to do the opposite.

They offer at least one car lower than the average price of a new car for the whole industry....another couple barely above it.... (and those are the bulk of all their cars sold)- and are generally significantly cheaper than comparable lux cars as well.


When I cross shopped BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, Mercedes, etc and in the end bought my Tesla, the Tesla ended up the cheapest on the list, comparably equipped- but also offered the best performance and the most advanced L2 ADAS system on the market at the time (and still to this day).
 
This is veering more and more OT, but here ya go Knightshade

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Source: Strong Luxury Vehicle Sales in December 2021 Drive Average New-Vehicle Prices Further into Record Territory, According to Kelley Blue Book

The average Tesla sold for 38% more than the Industry average in Dec 2021 -- they better be cream of the crop.
 
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The average Tesla sold for 38% more than the Industry average in Dec 2021 -- they better be cream of the crop.


Ok.

But that is unrelated to your actual claim

Lest you hurt yourself moving those goalposts, let me remind you what you actually claimed


To be fair, all Tesla vehicles are expensive



Not "the average tesla"

ALL teslas.

Which is demonstrably untrue. They sell a model cheaper than the average new car

So not "all" teslas are expensive. One is cheaper than average. A couple more are like 5% above average (and come back UNDER average in states with EV incentives). Some are considerably higher of course.


You don't need spreadsheets to understand your claim was not accurate.

To cite an earlier post (also of yours)- Trying to argue otherwise is honestly just strange and probably a bit disingenuous.
 
Who else here thinks Tesla sells an inexpensive model? Almost 100% of Tesla vehicles produced in 2021 were the two cheapest options available regardless of trim and they sold for 38% more than the average price of all vehicles in December, which is already an amalgamation of actual cheap vehicles and very expensive vehicles that skew it upwards.

Nobody in their right mind thinks this. All Tesla vehicles are expensive, it's currently an exclusively-luxury brand and the company presently has zero intentions of distracting themselves by creating new cheaper models.
 
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And this is patently wrong. It blindly assumes that a danger actually does exist and that the computer is always right. Musk himself has said that PB is a problem. If all the PB events were from some mystical ‘unseen danger,’ he wouldn’t have said that. We have plenty of reports of cars braking on wide open roads in clear conditions where any danger would be readily evident. Stop trying to spread this false excuse.
I love how SURE you are of everything you say. There is no hint of doubt in your thoughts.

I clearly stated this is a nascent system that is evaluating more data than you chose to pay attention to. If only the programming was as simple based on 1 sensor and 1 parameter (distance).
 
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