CyberGus
Not Just a Member
A mirage is "real" in that it is an optical illusion, as opposed to a hallucination.
For vision-based AI to succeed, it will need to distinguish between reality, and optical artifacts.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Phantom Braking
- Thread starter 2101Guy
- Start date
A mirage is "real" in that it is an optical illusion, as opposed to a hallucination.
For vision-based AI to succeed, it will need to distinguish between reality, and optical artifacts.
There is a very simple solution which Tesla could implement: Autosteer without TACC.
What don't we read about here? "Phantom Swerving". The car rarely autonomously decides to go a wrong direction when lane lines are clear. That part is solved well.
The problem is always in the longitudinal speed control. Let the human do that if PB is bad in a stretch.
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
My dyslexia is playing up again....I misread your post as...’it does not record the scream’
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Not sure they could.
AP slows down for certain curves for example- curves that AS alone might not be able to handle properly if it didn't have control over speed as well.
Possibly, but they could put in a max speed limiter for those curves. People aren't complaining about the speed control in those circumstances, it's other ones. And realistically, humans will naturally slow on their own on curves, particularly if they aren't holding on to the wheel.
Yes, I'd be fine with that. How well with they function if they don't work well under "less" extreme circumstances? Maybe they only work well in "extreme" circumstances. All I know is I never even knew the term "phantom braking" until I owned a Tesla and experienced on a daily basis and sometime immeasurable amount of times on a trip.
This isn't my first car with adaptive cruise control. I think the first I might have had was a Toyota Avalon Hybrid in 2013. It also had a pre-collision system and seat belt tensioners. I drove 50k plus miles and never had an incident. My Y could go 100 miles without an incident. Not to mention how well with these systems work in inclement weather relying solely on vision.
The only thing worse than no tech, is bad tech. There is also not a really good feedback loop for getting our complaints back to Tesla and being heard. So far it seems like the only way to get them to notice is go to NHTSA and file a complaint.
My literally sucked and was a danger to drive. I lost count of how many times I almost got rear ended and likely would have if I didn't floor the accelerator. So many hear initially blew off my experience. Somehow I wasn't using TACC or AP right. Must be some strange issue, yada yada. Then a lot more reports starting coming out.
At least my S still remains awesome with respect to PB events and I'll just likely stay on my software that is the last version that supports radar until there is unequivocal proof that TeslaVision won't Eff it up if I go to it. Or just give me a dumb cruise control option.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
2013 Avalon owners manual said:
So it just turns off under 25 mph? This is an example of the garbage that kept me from even considering a new Lexus IS when I replaced mine with a Tesla (that and the fact they were still recycling a ~15 year old engine and other things)
That it also doesn't work with auto wipers is extra weird though.
Agreed. A system that works down to 0 mph is vastly better than one that just doesn't work at all in traffic/slowdowns.
Can you cite any reports of any actual accidents from this?
Or just folks who "think" it's dangerous yet somehow never experience actual danger?
That said- indeed quite a lot of folks don't use AP correctly- often complaining about things like it acted weird when someone on a bicycle was nearby- despite the manual explicitly saying it's not intended for use anyplace there's bicycles (or pedestrians- it's a controlled-access freeway system ONLY)
But that's not a fault of the system. FSDb is vastly better in such situations, and even when it DOES seemingly phantom brake (most often cresting hills) it's a 2-3 mph slowdown, not OMG THIS WILL CAUSE AN ACCIDENT IN MY IMAGINATION slowdowns.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
That reading might be more accurate!
FSD Beta 10.69
Exactly - signal before you slow down so people are expecting it. If all cars were being driven by AI it wouldn’t matter as they’d see you slowing within milliseconds and react and brake just fine. Surprising the human driver behind me is a good way to get rear ended even though I (and FSD)...
teslamotorsclub.com
FSD Beta 10.69
Exactly - signal before you slow down so people are expecting it. If all cars were being driven by AI it wouldn’t matter as they’d see you slowing within milliseconds and react and brake just fine. Surprising the human driver behind me is a good way to get rear ended even though I (and FSD)...
teslamotorsclub.com
Nods. I've no idea how you are using TACC, but I generally only used it when it was on a divided highway or freeway, when it worked well. Tesla's "fix" for TACC is FSD, which DOES work well on many roads (and, for me at least, is very reliable on long drives on winding country roads), but of course this is a big $$$ extra fee. I think everyone pretty much assumes (as do I) that the FSD stack will replace the TACC stack at some point, so TACC will essentially be FSD without the more sophisticated stuff like making turns etc. Hopefully that will sort our FB, but obviously this is no comfort to you right now
HyperionMark
Member
Another data point regarding my prior post:
Our 2022 Model Y with the same exact FSD Beta software did not have any phantom braking on similar stretches of road yesterday, both in daylight and at night. Literally zero.
I've often wondered whether the extra 8 or so inches that the Y has in camera height is enough to make an impact of the vision with better angles. Thoughts? Or is newer hardware the reason?
Rim swaps rarely effect ride hight more than an inch or so since total tire diameter rarely changes much. Combining a rim swap and some aftermarket suspension could add up to change a few inches in some cases though.Those people with the Performance versions, who swop between 21 and 18 inch wheels, might have noticed something
I've had my Y PB at 80 mph on a 4 lane divided highway and slow down to 50 mph on a road with no traffic near me and oncoming traffic at least a mile away and both sides separated by at least 300'. It was I-20 near Tyler Texas. Regardless TACC should not have a limitation restricting it to divided highways, freeways, etc. My Toyota worked fine (and numerous other cars I've had since with adaptive cruise) even 10 years ago.Nods. I've no idea how you are using TACC, but I generally only used it when it was on a divided highway or freeway, when it worked well. Tesla's "fix" for TACC is FSD, which DOES work well on many roads (and, for me at least, is very reliable on long drives on winding country roads), but of course this is a big $$$ extra fee. I think everyone pretty much assumes (as do I) that the FSD stack will replace the TACC stack at some point, so TACC will essentially be FSD without the more sophisticated stuff like making turns etc. Hopefully that will sort our FB, but obviously this is no comfort to you right now
I find cruise control (if it works properly), a great way to keep me from getting tickets. Where I live now, there is VERY heavy police enforcement and the speed limits are 30-35mph for miles around my house. Getting off the freeway there is a nice long downhill where even on a bicycle it would be easy for me to exceed the speed limit without much pedaling. So in this instance, cruise is a blessing and has already saved me a few times from getting a ticket on my motorcycles.
I love how Tesla says TACC is beta. Then give me the option for dumb cruise that ISN'T in BETA. I also like how they say to primarily use it on dry, straight roads and then add like "highways". Notice, nowhere does it say "divided". A common definition of a highway is "a main road, especially one connecting major towns or cities." Well TACC failed miserably on my Y on a lot of highways.
Maybe they will propagate enough of the FSD stack to make it better. I shouldn't have to invest 12k to get reliable cruise control. I rented the FSD for a month and it didn't make my 3 any better (was pretty good before) and on my S, and in the end, clearly wasn't worth having yet. Maybe being in the FSD Beta where you get the better code, it might, but really all I want is cruise that doesn't suck to augment my AP. Most of the other FSD features are worthless to me. The lane change with turn signals was not worth it and could be abrupt. I've seen too many issues with summons and those failures so I'll never invest until it is about 1,000 times better.
Last edited:
I lived it enough times to know that if I didn't accelerate, I would have been rear ended. You don't brake hard in front of a semi going 75 mph on I-95. That guy was all over his horn and all I could see was his grill in my rear view mirror. That is as close enough of a call that I don't need to be in an actual accident to prove something is Effed up.
Just like my friend how used to tell me driving while stoned wasn't an issue because he was never in an accident... Until he was. A lot of people also may not understand what is going on. I guarantee if you drove my Y, you'd have the same impression I did. The subsequent sure does. It has even phantom braked in some of the same areas it did it for me even with the most recent version of code.
Fortunately it has gotten better but the improvement for him has been from terrible to bad. Again Tesla says no issues. He never bothers to use TACC or AP even though he has days were he has to commute 160 miles one way to work and it would be awesome for him if it would perform as it should.
I am past defending the defenseless at this point. It has been about 17 months with that car since new and TACC/AP still can't figure out how not to PB often.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Why does this matter? If there’s no accidents it’s not a problem? That’s a pretty low bar.
Maybe it matters only from the perspective that, if there were documented accidents (or more of them?), Tesla would have urgent incentive to fix the issue.
One would think NHTSA would be all over this if there were many documented accidents, and apparently they are not. Tesla PB has been on NHTSA's radar now regarding this since February 16 of this year. 2022 TESLA MODEL Y 5-SEAT SUV RWD | NHTSA
It remains an open investigation. Why? Other issues, such as the heating/cooling system problem, were addressed within a few weeks.
The FSD beta stack is totally different to the non-beta FSD stack (which is really just TACC with a few quick bolt-ons). And the difference is night and day. As I said, the (presumed) strategy for Tesla is to focus on the FSD beta, and then package a subset of FSD as the new TACC/AP when FSD reaches maturity. I'm not going to comment on the wisdom or folly of this, but if you want plain old CC then you will have to look elsewhere than Tesla.
So far I am good with my S as I am keeping the version of code I have now that keeps radar enabled. I may not ever upgrade unless there is some issue that is bad enough to resolve and a later code update fixes it. It is the car I use mostly on the highways.
Our 3 is the city runabout car so really no need for it other than watching my speed in the car on the 30 mph zones. Most of the time the family is in the car in that situation and my wife watches the speedo like a hawk. I also set up the warning chime to ding if the speed is exceeded by enough. I do wish you could adjust the volume on it. Maybe you can and I just haven't found a solution.
Our 3 is the city runabout car so really no need for it other than watching my speed in the car on the 30 mph zones. Most of the time the family is in the car in that situation and my wife watches the speedo like a hawk. I also set up the warning chime to ding if the speed is exceeded by enough. I do wish you could adjust the volume on it. Maybe you can and I just haven't found a solution.
Similar threads
