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Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car
- Thread starter RHINO SKIN SOL
- Start date
Sounds very scary can’t wait to see how much of that is not true once I get MY and compare it to our radar M3.
I hope it is an isolated case - I am big Tesla fan & investor, and have 2 more Tesla vehicles on order. Even with this issue, love our Y. Just hope this gets fixed.
It can't be the radar .. since he has FSD beta in the M3 then NEITHER car is using radar. So we have two cars with the same sensors behaving differently (apparently). Which means its presumably the difference between FSD beta and non FSD beta. Which, in turn, makes me wonder where he is trying to drive his non-beta MY and what he expects it so do.
Sounds to me like the "lessons learned" from FSD Beta are not getting kicked down to regular AP yet. Either that or he is just a liar like Whitewii implied. Guess what option I am thinking is correct?
Eventually they will let us plebs have working software... but as a paying customer, I find this type of thing inexcusable. There are thousands (tens of thousands?) of people who are voluntary beta testers... use them to your hearts content! Then after you have used them to develop vision only TACC and Auto steering you start producing cars without radar. Taking out the radar before having a usable (let alone a perfected) version of vision only is reprehensible.
Is the switch to Vision only actually a supply chain issue? Probably... but they are telling us that it was a planned event that has nothing to do with supply chain. The sad part is that if they are telling the truth then they screwed us over on purpose, and if it is not true they are lying to us for some obscure reason.
Keith
buddhafree
2022 MYP
I watched LIDAR presentation where they show Tesla repeatedly hitting dummy child while the car with their own LIDAR radar mounted on top is able to avoid collision. This presented a question, is the avoidance system even worth it? If it fails to prevent accidents but causing "phantom breaking" then what is the point?
I found IIHS Pedestrian tests and they show completely different picture. Model Y got top score in pedestrian test avoidance with the similar looking child size dummies... It appears that LIDAR company was looking for a way to show that systems without LIDAR radar don't work. They may have found an unstable or old Tesla version, program LIDAR on highest sensitivity settings just for a test to show how great their radar tech is. Elon hates LIDAR radars but doesn't say why. Is it a cost or limitations of LIDAR technologies?
In any case, I found people on youtube who show many phantom breaks from a year ago when Tesla did use LIDAR in their cars. This problem is not new. The question is did it get worse and, if yes, why? Tesla from a year ago show worse results in IIHS Pedestrian avoidance tests than now. Maybe more phantom breaks are not the result of removing LIDAR but simply because Tesla made their pedestrian system more sensitive to prevent accidents? I don't have an answer, but we should consider other possible factors that could contribute to phantom breaking issues.
I found IIHS Pedestrian tests and they show completely different picture. Model Y got top score in pedestrian test avoidance with the similar looking child size dummies... It appears that LIDAR company was looking for a way to show that systems without LIDAR radar don't work. They may have found an unstable or old Tesla version, program LIDAR on highest sensitivity settings just for a test to show how great their radar tech is. Elon hates LIDAR radars but doesn't say why. Is it a cost or limitations of LIDAR technologies?
In any case, I found people on youtube who show many phantom breaks from a year ago when Tesla did use LIDAR in their cars. This problem is not new. The question is did it get worse and, if yes, why? Tesla from a year ago show worse results in IIHS Pedestrian avoidance tests than now. Maybe more phantom breaks are not the result of removing LIDAR but simply because Tesla made their pedestrian system more sensitive to prevent accidents? I don't have an answer, but we should consider other possible factors that could contribute to phantom breaking issues.
oh that is absolutely the case .. they can't do that it would be too dangerous. Once FSD beta is stable the entire et of AP features will migrate to using the new stack, so AP/TACC/NoA will just be feature-limited versions of FSD (from the low-level NN/AI standpoint at least). The one vision stack to rule them all!
Its both I think .. they planned to dump radar but the timing was forced by the supply chain. To be honest, in my case I've not noticed any regressions as a result of the switch to FSD beta on my radar-equipped M3, but I only ever tried using TACC in roads I felt were very safe .. which is probably why I almost never saw phantom braking events.
My co-worker with the M3 SR+ (with radar) noticed a huge difference in phantom braking when he first got FSD Beta, but he says that it has improved a bunch since then... so the system is improving. I just hate waiting a year or more (it has been half a year already) for functional vision only systems on my car. They could mitigate the problem easily with the option to use dumb cruise... they already have dumb cruise software from the older Model 3's that had Auto Pilot as a paid option. If you want me to stop bitching and moaning convince Elon to give dumb cruise as an option
Keith
SalisburySam
Active Member
Really? To my knowledge, Tesla has not used LIDAR in a production vehicle. My 3-year-old Model 3 does have radar though. Is that what you meant? LIDAR = light detection and ranging; RADAR = radio detection and ranging.
buddhafree
2022 MYP
The articles and videos I'm researching are discussing LIDAR so I assumed Tesla used LIDAR before. They only used LIDAR for R&D.
You are right. All production cars were using Radar sensors.
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Been following this thread and posting occasionally since its inception. I think I am pretty close to totally giving up on AP. I was going to drive from Florida to California. Unfortunately it ended up being just to Texas in my MY LR.
I downloaded the latest version before leaving and I actually thought things were better than before. I got almost all the way across I-10 before a minor phantom braking issue. So I was feeling pretty comfortable with it. I shouldn't have as once I hit Mobile and to Hattiesburg, MS I must have had about 20 phantom braking issues. I was on a 2 lane highway and literally no traffic around me and it would phantom brake. NO shadows either for the most part. I endured mild (bleeding off 5-10 mph) to moderate where it was dropping the speed 20 mph or more.
The fun continued as I headed west. Even at night I had a lot of phantom braking. In Eastern TX, I had TACC on at 90mph, and coming down a hill, on a 4 land highway, it slammed on the brakes and tried to do a full emergency stop. There was nobody at all on my side of the road and it was a split highway (I-20 near Tyler, TX) and it went full collision warning and knocked off a good 50 mph before I could get my foot back on the gas pedal. People that weren't that close behind me at first, instantly were.
I bought a Tesla because of the SC network. That meant I planned to use it on a lot of trips, not just local driving. Having TACC/AP that is constantly trying harm you, is not what the driver's aid you want on a trip. Just today drove from Dallas to Ft Worth. No apparent reason, it was full collision warning and scared the crap out of my wife and kid when it slammed on the brakes again. There was a semi about 100' to the left in another lane and not even on a remote collision path. I was doing 65 and they were just a little slower than me. I got the collision warning and "corrective action taken, yada, yada, yada."
I counted 45 phantom braking events on my trip from FL to Texas. Five of them were "we're gonna die" reactions from the car, ten were issues of dropping speed 20 mph or more, and the rest 5-15 mph drops. I really think they screwed us when they removed radar on the 3/Y. I am at my wits end dealing with this. I can't even just use TACC in normal traffic without it being a hazard to us and the people near us. If it doesn't get any better, in the next revision, I am going to punt sell while there is still high demand for the Y's. I love the car other than the phantom braking issues. It is to the point my wife checks to make sure I am not using TACC when she is in the car.
They need to fix this right now before someone is in a very serious accident!
I downloaded the latest version before leaving and I actually thought things were better than before. I got almost all the way across I-10 before a minor phantom braking issue. So I was feeling pretty comfortable with it. I shouldn't have as once I hit Mobile and to Hattiesburg, MS I must have had about 20 phantom braking issues. I was on a 2 lane highway and literally no traffic around me and it would phantom brake. NO shadows either for the most part. I endured mild (bleeding off 5-10 mph) to moderate where it was dropping the speed 20 mph or more.
The fun continued as I headed west. Even at night I had a lot of phantom braking. In Eastern TX, I had TACC on at 90mph, and coming down a hill, on a 4 land highway, it slammed on the brakes and tried to do a full emergency stop. There was nobody at all on my side of the road and it was a split highway (I-20 near Tyler, TX) and it went full collision warning and knocked off a good 50 mph before I could get my foot back on the gas pedal. People that weren't that close behind me at first, instantly were.
I bought a Tesla because of the SC network. That meant I planned to use it on a lot of trips, not just local driving. Having TACC/AP that is constantly trying harm you, is not what the driver's aid you want on a trip. Just today drove from Dallas to Ft Worth. No apparent reason, it was full collision warning and scared the crap out of my wife and kid when it slammed on the brakes again. There was a semi about 100' to the left in another lane and not even on a remote collision path. I was doing 65 and they were just a little slower than me. I got the collision warning and "corrective action taken, yada, yada, yada."
I counted 45 phantom braking events on my trip from FL to Texas. Five of them were "we're gonna die" reactions from the car, ten were issues of dropping speed 20 mph or more, and the rest 5-15 mph drops. I really think they screwed us when they removed radar on the 3/Y. I am at my wits end dealing with this. I can't even just use TACC in normal traffic without it being a hazard to us and the people near us. If it doesn't get any better, in the next revision, I am going to punt sell while there is still high demand for the Y's. I love the car other than the phantom braking issues. It is to the point my wife checks to make sure I am not using TACC when she is in the car.
They need to fix this right now before someone is in a very serious accident!
I used to think people were joking when they said their Tesla was out to kill them. I can totally understand their position now.
I took a lot of notes until it was just too much to keep up with while driving. The most phantom braking events I had occurred when traveling north or south and when the shadows were longest crossing the road. In my experience it clearly has an issue differentiating shadows from real objects/issues.
The one issue that is most baffling to me is the one at night on I-20. I couldn't see any shadows that could have caused it. It was a very hard braking event and absolutely no one around and no speed limit change signs like for construction.
Given how the cars I tested with radar before I bought mine were vastly superior to my car. I have had lots of other cars with adaptive cruise and even a 2013 Toyota Avalon with adaptive cruise worked far better than our MY LR. That was 9 years ago and Tesla's implementation isn't even remotely as functional as it was. Gone through a lot of other manufacturers over the last decade in my MB, Lexus, Acura, Audi, and Porsche over that period of time, none of them have exhibited phantom braking anywhere on a scale of the MY vision only based system.
I wish there was an option to disable the adaptive part and just make it a normal dumb cruise control.
I took a lot of notes until it was just too much to keep up with while driving. The most phantom braking events I had occurred when traveling north or south and when the shadows were longest crossing the road. In my experience it clearly has an issue differentiating shadows from real objects/issues.
The one issue that is most baffling to me is the one at night on I-20. I couldn't see any shadows that could have caused it. It was a very hard braking event and absolutely no one around and no speed limit change signs like for construction.
Given how the cars I tested with radar before I bought mine were vastly superior to my car. I have had lots of other cars with adaptive cruise and even a 2013 Toyota Avalon with adaptive cruise worked far better than our MY LR. That was 9 years ago and Tesla's implementation isn't even remotely as functional as it was. Gone through a lot of other manufacturers over the last decade in my MB, Lexus, Acura, Audi, and Porsche over that period of time, none of them have exhibited phantom braking anywhere on a scale of the MY vision only based system.
I wish there was an option to disable the adaptive part and just make it a normal dumb cruise control.
SalisburySam
Active Member
Yup. Owners have been asking for this in their Model 3’s and Y’s since they came out and doing so in these forums, in service appointments, in texts to Musk, and in hundreds if not thousands of bug reports which we later learned don’t even go to Tesla. Point is, the vagaries of TACC and its effects on passengers have only increased the call for dumb cruise control over the years as phantom braking hasn’t even begun to go away. Next vehicle will have a dumb cruise option regardless of brand.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the phantom breaking was a problem even when nothing is enabled due to crash avoidance.
You don't need TACC on for it to work, it can phantom brake at pretty much any time.
Not really. A forward collision warning will show the offending vehicle on the visualization and highlight it in red. I only see this when someone turns left in front of me. It's never phantom in nature.
So what you would you call it when the emergency braking engages to avoid a collision when there is no imminent collision? I have had it do that. No vehicle encroaching in my lane, no obvious threat, and it still braked while NOT on TACC/AP. So call it something else if you want, it braked when it shouldn't have braked at all. No threat whatsoever. So why do you want to call it when the automatic emergency braking (AEB) engages when it shouldn't? It is still unwanted and unsafe behavior.
As for Phantom braking events with TACC or AP on I have lost count the number of times I have had them since I got the car back in May.
I am definitely not the only one with the issue with respect to phantom braking with TACC/AP engaged. Just google "phantom braking Tesla vision" and see how many hits come up. If we continue to accept it, when there clearly is an issue, it will never get fixed and someone is going to be badly hurt because of it someday.
As for Phantom braking events with TACC or AP on I have lost count the number of times I have had them since I got the car back in May.
I am definitely not the only one with the issue with respect to phantom braking with TACC/AP engaged. Just google "phantom braking Tesla vision" and see how many hits come up. If we continue to accept it, when there clearly is an issue, it will never get fixed and someone is going to be badly hurt because of it someday.
I think it's understood and common usage that any incorrect automatic braking event can be called "phantom braking." The term is widely used even when you think you know what triggered it, so long as the trigger wasn't anything that the car should actually brake for.
Phantom/wrong AEB is a thing without TACC enabled. Happened to me yesterday. Not common for me so far but it is real. I always turn off AEB now when driving at a fast pace where phantom braking could cause a real problem (spin, wreck, etc).
I've also had phantom slowdowns on VO TACC that weren't AEB. Hasn't been too common in my TACC use though, bigger issues with VO TACC for me have been late + hard braking (this seems better with the December SW updates!) and really slow, delayed acceleration (less delay now with the updates but still much too slow/gradual).
Phantom/wrong AEB is a thing without TACC enabled. Happened to me yesterday. Not common for me so far but it is real. I always turn off AEB now when driving at a fast pace where phantom braking could cause a real problem (spin, wreck, etc).
I've also had phantom slowdowns on VO TACC that weren't AEB. Hasn't been too common in my TACC use though, bigger issues with VO TACC for me have been late + hard braking (this seems better with the December SW updates!) and really slow, delayed acceleration (less delay now with the updates but still much too slow/gradual).
SalisburySam
Active Member
I don’t think any of us who experience phantom braking has any choice in this other than turning off AEB and not using TACC, two features we paid for. Worse, TACC is the gateway to the other driver assist functions like the rest of EAP and FSD so no TACC means none of those features either. If Tesla reads any forum, they’ve gotten an earful about this. Lots of bug reports, tweets to Elon, everything short of a class action lawsuit. For me, my ”unacceptance” will manifest in my next car choice, something with dumb cruise at least as an option.
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