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Phoenix Motorcars SUT/SUV

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by DDB, Dec 28, 2006.

  1. DDB

    DDB Member

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    Phoenix SUT

    I thought this was worth mentioning...Phoenix is apparently on schedule ;D:

    Altair Nanotechnologies Completes Li-Ion Battery Pack Order for Phoenix Motorcars
    28 December 2006
    Anano
    Comparison of cycle life (18,000 cycles for Altairnano NanoSafe vs. 750 for conventional li-ion). Click to enlarge.

    Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. announced today that it shipped ten rapid-charge, high-power li-ion battery packs to Phoenix Motorcars, Inc. on schedule. The shipment of the ten 35 kWh battery packs fulfills and completes the $750,000 order placed by Phoenix in July 2006.

    The company placed an additional order for one 35 kWh battery pack which will be shipped later this week.

    Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery packs power the Phoenix sport utility truck (SUT) and sport utility vehicle (SUV). Altairnano’s nano-Titanate-based batteries come in two battery pack configurations: 35 kWh and 70 kWh.

    The 35 and 70 kWh NanoSafe packs provide sufficient power and energy for a fleet vehicle to travel up to 130 or 250 miles, respectively, with a top speed of more than 100 mph. Both NanoSafe battery packs can be recharged in less than 10 minutes using an industrial 480 volt battery charging platform.

    The NanoSafe battery packs can also be charged over longer periods of time when using typical 120 or 240 volt power sources. An on-board charger is standard equipment for both the Phoenix SUT and SUV vehicles.

    We are pleased with the on-time shipments, the quality and performance of the Altairnano NanoSafe battery packs. Early customer interest in our SUV and SUT vehicles has exceeded expectations. Phoenix has committed to use Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery packs exclusively and we anticipate placing more orders for the NanoSafe battery packs shortly. Phoenix is on track to begin commercial delivery of our full size, all electric Sport Utility Trucks to the fleet market in the spring of 2007.
    —Daniel Elliott, CEO Phoenix Motorcars

    In September, Altairnano and Alcoa AFL Automotive announced they will develop an integrated lithium-ion battery pack system for medium-duty hybrid trucks. The battery pack will use Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery technology and AFL Automotive’s electrical interconnect and application technology to integrate the battery pack system into the vehicle’s electrical architecture. (Earlier post.)

    Altairnano replaces graphite anodes with its nano-Titanate material, which provides a very high surface area and reduces hazards by removing the graphite. The NanoSafe batteries charge in less than 10 minutes, have a power density of 4 kW/kg, have 85% charge retention at 20,000 cycles, will not explode and have no thermal runaway, according to the company.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/12/altair_nanotech.html#more

    Dave
     
  2. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Mainecoon Butler

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    Re: Phoenix SUT

    This is a very good news (TM).

    Even more important than Phoenix being on schedule is that nanosafe batteris are materializing. Their inital price is of course ... initial ;D
    The best thing about them is their supposed 18.000+ cycle life, high power (10C) capability and suposed inherent safety. Cost will go down, don't you worry :)

    Is this too good to be true?
     
  3. asdar

    asdar Member

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    Re: Phoenix SUT

    I think the question I have is whether the price will come down enough. Lithium costs quite a bit, and the market for that is too big to ignore.

    The first batch of 10 doesn't count, in my opinion, as far as the actual price/cost. Being the first one to get these with all the hype, licensing, charging station tech and such is going to cost. I doubt very much that they plan on selling batteries at a loss and Phoenix has put the starting price on the SUT at $45k I believe.

    It'll be the 1,000th battery that I think will be a sign of how successful this SUT and battery company will be.

    The weight of the Altair battery needs to be double the Tesla for the same range(Altair site, front page graph of energy) as the batteries the Tesla uses. The 35kWh must weigh something like 1,000+ lbs. I think I've read quite a few places that the Lith-ion batteries for the Tesla cost $20k. If they cost roughly the same to produce and they pay for the Lithium at close to the same price that'd put the 150 mile range battery at $20k.

    If it goes as high as $30k, for just the battery then I think the car is out of range for most people.

    They've been smart, like Tesla and hit the right market. The fleet market is wide open, and this car would pretty easily pay for itself at $45k in a busy fleet. The charging station and many of the typical electric car stuff would be common so there'd be less overlap.
     
  4. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Mainecoon Butler

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    Re: Phoenix SUT

    from another blog:

     
  5. DDB

    DDB Member

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    Re: Phoenix SUT

    3 questions:

    1) who qualifies as a fleet? Is it just based on volume or do you have to have some sort of affiliation with a legitimate entity rather than just a group who bands together and places one massive order.

    2) what is the minimum number of units that can be purchased?

    3) are these vehicles only available to those in CA?

    Thoughts?
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Re: Phoenix SUT

    Update... Not only does Phoenix have their SUT, but Altairnano is working with them on an SUV as well.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    Re: Phoenix SUT

    I'm optimistic about battery prices. It's not a technology problem, it's a manufacturing problem.

    Compare with LCD panels, for example. . . They are some of the most difficult and complex things to manufacture that have ever been invented. You can probably remember how expensive they were years ago when they first appeared. What happened is that big companies like Samsung and Matsushita invested in huge, sophisticated, automated factories and brought the cost down. Now they cost a small fraction of what the early ones did.

    The same thing can and should happen with lithium-ion batteries. Manufacturers just need to see the demand first to justify building those plants.
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Electric auto players ready to roll out vehicles in U.S. - MarketWatch

    "Daniel Elliott, CEO of Phoenix Motorcars, said the Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.-based company will begin selling its electric, four-door pickup truck to the fleet market next year with a likely roll-out to the consumer market in 2009.
    ...
    Phoenix faced a delay in getting certification for its electric car because of the type of plug it's using to charge the cars, but company officials expect to resolve the issue in time for its launch next year."
     
  9. Brent

    Brent Member

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    Is there no hope for a universal plug?
     
  10. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    The sales guy told me that they would let a dozen or so SUVs go to regular consumers. They just have to be within 200 miles of their Ontario factory.
     
  11. DDB

    DDB Member

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    Most of you probably saw the autobloggreen article on Phoenix. Anyway, the word is that Phoenix is in trouble because it canceled its orders for a ton of electric engines.... My thinking is they've spent a llot of time and money developing the prototypes, which by most accounts suggest it works. But their business model is flawed, depending on things in government to remain the same. If the Phoenix is so expensive to manufacture, would it not be viable to lease the car?

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/01/phoenix-motorcars-cancels-uqm-technologies-motor-order/#comments

    Perhaps it is just time to sell to a manufacturer? Ford or Chrysler may be decent candidates.
     
  12. Kardax

    Kardax Member

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    I just noticed that. I'm sure Phoenix's 500-or-so customers are very interested to hear an official explanation about this.

    Offering the car for lease wouldn't make it any less expensive to manufacture, but it could generate higher long-term revenue.

    I don't think Phoenix is the sort of company that Ford/Chrysler/etc would be interested in buying. Phoenix doesn't have any unique technologies, and doesn't even add much value to the sum of all those parts they buy from third parties.

    -Ryan / Kardax
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Phoenix may not be in trouble at all considering this just released statement:
    http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0323402.htm

    I can't wait for details about the new motor technology and the new battery packaging.
     
  14. DDB

    DDB Member

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    It's a little ironic that Tesla's own Daryl Siry is the one who triggered the big news regarding Phoenix.

    http://2fwww.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/01/phoenix-motorcars-cancels-uqm-technologies-motor-order/#comments

    It may be public information, but given the last public scrap with Miles, just stay out of it... These EV companies need to learn that all of them collectively would have a much better shot at selling EVs if they focus on broadening the market in general (ie offering more products).
     
  15. Kardax

    Kardax Member

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    The Phoenix Press release ( http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0323402.htm ) does shine more light on the situation. It looks like what I wondered out loud at AutoblogGreen is exactly what happened: Phoenix switched motor suppliers.

    The new part is their decision to switch to a smaller battery pack (along with a downward range revision to "100+ miles").

    I'm curious what this means for their production schedule. They may have to re-do all their crash tests with these changes. They'll still have to do EPA range testing to figure out what "100+ miles" really is. They haven't been very transparent so there could be a lot more going on. All this makes an "early 2008" release seem very unlikely.

    -Ryan / Kardax
     
  16. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  17. Kardax

    Kardax Member

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    Tesla isn't the only company making motors in that KW range. Still, it is an interesting coincidence.

    Tesla axed the Think deal back in September to remain focused on the Roadster. This makes it seem unlikely they'd be interested in any new deals, especially with a potential competitor on their own turf.

    -Ryan / Kardax
     
  18. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Phoenix partnering with VW to build EV's in Mexico. This could be big if a major player like VW is involved.
    http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/news/2007/pr_071119.html
     
  19. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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