Phone as Key Issues

[Argyle]

Extremely convenient if it's raining cats and dogs, or some creep is following my wife to her car. Thanks Tesla!

A small consolation is that if you're tracking the progress of the phone connection in the app, I'm pretty sure you can just unlock the car using the app if the car is awake. But of course you've already pulled your phone out of your pocket at that point...

 

[Argyle]

I now use my phone's Settings to turn off Bluetooth when I get home, then use the quick swipe menu to turn it back on when I am going to get in my car (on Android you can use quick swipe for both; Apple's quick swipe just turns it off "until tomorrow"). I don't do this at stores or at at any location where I'll be clearly out of Bluetooth range (> 100 feet, behind walls). In those cases, I leave Bluetooth on. The phone as key works all the time if I do this. Kind of a pain, but better than rebooting.

The reason I do this is because I've designed the Bluetooth products and I've had to deal with this issue on my products already. Bluetooth wasn't designed with "coming and going" in mind, so if you hover at the fringes of reception—like in most peoples' houses—you'll eventually invoke a stack ban, and restoring communications will require a restart. It's very frustrating for app developers like Tesla to deal with, because it's buried in the OS at a level app developers are deliberately not granted access to. It's never an issue for devices that are stationary, so most companies don't encounter it.

If you're lucky enough to have a home/garage that blocks Bluetooth or is far enough away from your phone, you won't have to do this.

Longer term, Apple and Google need to help app developers deal with "coming and going" Bluetooth use cases. Wouldn't take much. They could start by exposing signal strength and perhaps allowing app developers to read and reset the timeouts and retry limits that lead to stack bans. In the past, they have been loathe to do this for battery life reasons.

So some more info, now that I think about it...

After the car was slow to unlock this afternoon, I was hanging out in my bedroom (which is in BT range of the car)...when all of a sudden the phone/media Bluetooth attempted to connect to my phone. (This is very annoying because I have it set up to autolaunch Android Auto on connection to the car's infotainment system...) It kept doing this over and over until I went downstairs and rebooted the car (it did, at least, open right up when I did this)...

After that things seemed to settle down and work properly, but at no point did I restart my phone. I guess my point is that I'm not sure a stack ban is what caused my problem? I don't doubt that it's a real problem, it just might not be causing all of the problems people are seeing...

 

[daniel]

^ Just one more reason that phone-as-key was a bad idea!

 

[diamond.g]

^ Just one more reason that phone-as-key was a bad idea!

I think that Tesla expected the Tesla Network and FSD to be farther along that it is. Not having FOBs and relying on phone would make ride share service easier to implement as the "key" can be added and controlled from Teslas end without needing a trip to the Service Center.

At this point I am surprised no one it tweeting to Musk to offer a FOB as an option, though I am not sure if they would allow the FOBs to be paired without a visit to the SrvC as the app appears to need internet access to verify before allowing phone key to be activated (best guess, has anyone tried adding phone key with no internet?).

 

[wk057]

So, phone key was working great after I got the S9+.... now it's back to its old habit of not actually working consistently.

It actually was connected, and let me manually unlock the car via bluetooth... but it wouldn't walk-up-unlock or let me drive until I got the key card out.

*grumble*

 

[daniel]

I think that Tesla expected the Tesla Network and FSD to be farther along that it is. Not having FOBs and relying on phone would make ride share service easier to implement as the "key" can be added and controlled from Teslas end without needing a trip to the Service Center.

While having the ability to use a phone as a key makes perfect sense, completely eliminating the fob before determining that the phone is reliable, made no sense at all. Especially when bluetooth is very well known to be prone to problems. The rational approach would have been for the first car model with the phone as a key to also have a fob. Not just the half-way backup of the card key that can do none of the functions of a fob except open the door. This would have been a complete disaster had there not been the card key. But a fob with a physical key concealed inside it (as Toyota did with the Prius) would have allowed people whose phones don't reliably work as a key to still have a complete functioning system.

And to repeat what I've said before, a fob could have had buttons to open the trunks. The only practical way for me to open the frunk (which I use instead of the rear hatch for groceries) is to open the door of the car, lean way in, and use the screen. And I typically have to press the screen several times before the frunk opens! The alternative is to screw around with the phone, which is an enormous PITA.

 

[John Beans]

So some more info, now that I think about it...

After the car was slow to unlock this afternoon, I was hanging out in my bedroom (which is in BT range of the car)...when all of a sudden the phone/media Bluetooth attempted to connect to my phone. (This is very annoying because I have it set up to autolaunch Android Auto on connection to the car's infotainment system...) It kept doing this over and over until I went downstairs and rebooted the car (it did, at least, open right up when I did this)...

After that things seemed to settle down and work properly, but at no point did I restart my phone. I guess my point is that I'm not sure a stack ban is what caused my problem? I don't doubt that it's a real problem, it just might not be causing all of the problems people are seeing...

I didn't go into a lot of technical detail, but you DON'T want to be seeing your phone connect and disconnect. That's what I meant by "hanging around the fringes of reception" where putting your body between the car and phone, or standing in front of the refrigerator, or just moving further away causes transactions to begin to fail. Once too many failed transactions start to occur in a certain timeframe (and these parameters aren't published), safeguards within the deep Bluetooth software ("stack") can trigger, and all of a sudden Bluetooth communications between your phone and your car stop working. Regardless of what your phone or the car might say, "Connected" no longer means connected, and it can be impossible to get it working again without a reboot.

For anyone that cares, it's only Tesla's fault for relying on Bluetooth for this, not for how Bluetooth works. You might think, "Oh, Tesla should write the app so that it avoids the problem, or at least tells me what to do to fix it." But unfortunately, the way Bluetooth stacks work it's impossible for the app to tell exactly what's going on from the meager info the OS gives the app. The only solution (that I've found) is for the app to not trust the Bluetooth stack, and really quickly stop trying to send messages at the first sign of a failed message.

To avoid this problem, if I think I may be hanging around in range of Bluetooth (for example, at home), I turn Bluetooth off. Disabling and enabling Bluetooth is one of the few messages the app DOES reliably get. When I turn Bluetooth back on, the app goes back to working normally.

Is this super-convenient? Nope. Hopefully Tesla, Apple, and Google can sort this out. Until then...

 

[diamond.g]

I didn't go into a lot of technical detail, but you DON'T want to be seeing your phone connect and disconnect. That's what I meant by "hanging around the fringes of reception" where putting your body between the car and phone, or standing in front of the refrigerator, or just moving further away causes transactions to begin to fail. Once too many failed transactions start to occur in a certain timeframe (and these parameters aren't published), safeguards within the deep Bluetooth software ("stack") can trigger, and all of a sudden Bluetooth communications between your phone and your car stop working. Regardless of what your phone or the car might say, "Connected" no longer means connected, and it can be impossible to get it working again without a reboot.

For anyone that cares, it's only Tesla's fault for relying on Bluetooth for this, not for how Bluetooth works. You might think, "Oh, Tesla should write the app so that it avoids the problem, or at least tells me what to do to fix it." But unfortunately, the way Bluetooth stacks work it's impossible for the app to tell exactly what's going on from the meager info the OS gives the app. The only solution (that I've found) is for the app to not trust the Bluetooth stack, and really quickly stop trying to send messages at the first sign of a failed message.

To avoid this problem, if I think I may be hanging around in range of Bluetooth (for example, at home), I turn Bluetooth off. Disabling and enabling Bluetooth is one of the few messages the app DOES reliably get. When I turn Bluetooth back on, the app goes back to working normally.

Is this super-convenient? Nope. Hopefully Tesla, Apple, and Google can sort this out. Until then...

Not sure if you are able to say, but once the bt connection is made, are communications between the phone/app and car constant?

 

[daniel]

... To avoid this problem, if I think I may be hanging around in range of Bluetooth (for example, at home), I turn Bluetooth off. Disabling and enabling Bluetooth is one of the few messages the app DOES reliably get. When I turn Bluetooth back on, the app goes back to working normally.

I consider myself lucky that I'm not having BT problems <knock on wood!> but turning BT off would not be an acceptable solution for me because I use a BT earpiece for phone calls. The Tesla car is not the only thing people use Bluetooth for. There are earpieces for phone calls, sending music to a portable speaker, communicating to the Apple Watch for those that have that, and probably a lot of other stuff.

 

[slipnslider]

And another OS update on the phone could cause it to quit working again. Or the next iOS update for us iPhone users could suddenly cause it to quit working. Phones and their OSs are too varied to be a reliable means of getting into the car. And when the car dies completely (12V failure) a physical key could always open the door so at least you can get your stuff out of the car before shipping it to Tesla. But a physical door lock would mar the "minimalist" appearance of the car, so we didn't get one.

It's not something I'm too worried about because I think the likelihood is very low, but if the 12V dies while I'm at a stop on my way to hiking, and I cannot get into the car at all, all my hiking gear will be locked inside until the car is shipped to Tesla and back to me. I won't just arrive a day late for hiking, I will have no gear. Tesla got nearly everything right on this car, but the key issue is something they got VERY wrong.

Amen. The phone key system is the absolute dumbest part of this otherwise awesome car. BRING BACK THE FOB!

 

[Argyle]

I didn't go into a lot of technical detail, but you DON'T want to be seeing your phone connect and disconnect. That's what I meant by "hanging around the fringes of reception" where putting your body between the car and phone, or standing in front of the refrigerator, or just moving further away causes transactions to begin to fail. Once too many failed transactions start to occur in a certain timeframe (and these parameters aren't published), safeguards within the deep Bluetooth software ("stack") can trigger, and all of a sudden Bluetooth communications between your phone and your car stop working. Regardless of what your phone or the car might say, "Connected" no longer means connected, and it can be impossible to get it working again without a reboot.

For anyone that cares, it's only Tesla's fault for relying on Bluetooth for this, not for how Bluetooth works. You might think, "Oh, Tesla should write the app so that it avoids the problem, or at least tells me what to do to fix it." But unfortunately, the way Bluetooth stacks work it's impossible for the app to tell exactly what's going on from the meager info the OS gives the app. The only solution (that I've found) is for the app to not trust the Bluetooth stack, and really quickly stop trying to send messages at the first sign of a failed message.

I think I understand you but my point is that my symptoms don't seem to indicate that a stack ban is what happened to me? If a stack ban can only be cleared by rebooting the phone or disabling and reenabling Bluetooth then this is inconsistent with what I have been experiencing. The phone seems to connect, it just happens 30-60 seconds after I arrive at the car and pull the door handle.

Is it possible that the Android 8.1 Bluetooth stack only temporarily bans devices? If so, that could explain the behavior I'm seeing. I don't work with Bluetooth so you almost certainly have a better idea than I do on what's going on.

Also, as an attempt to mitigate this, I tried to pair my wife's work iPhone 5S as a phone key, which didn't work at all. Has anyone else gotten a 5S to pair? It just completely fails to find the car while I'm sitting in it. Since it's a work phone, her IT department is the administrator on it so it's possible there's some kind of restriction that keeps it from working, I suppose...

 

[GAS XXX]

The mere fact that this thread even exists is solid evidence that tesla should be providing a FOB with the car. If you want to spend your time switching phones, making sure you're on the right software version, troubleshooting problems, that's fine you can use the app. For everyone else, a FOB is needed. The mandatory phone key system is the absolute worst part of the model 3 design, and the finicky key card is a poor band aid which only illustrates tesla's own lack of confidence in the phone key.

 

[GAS XXX]

Amen. The phone key system is the absolute dumbest part of this otherwise awesome car. BRING BACK THE FOB!

Had problems from day one with phone app. Took the car to Tesla and they loaded new software/Firmware (I'm a bit of a Luddite - COBOL & JCL was my specialty). One of the Tesla tech solutions was to turn Airplane mode on then off. The techs apologized profusely about the problem and it was doubled when the new update appeared to not work. two hours later they explained that the new software did not move the mirrors until the door handles were pulled so as not to signal that the car was unlocked. Fair enough. That is good. Also you have to be closer to the car to have the car unlocked - Also good. I had several times the car would not respond to the phone key and the setting on airplane mode and then un-setting worked. BUT what a P.I.T.A!!! Standing outside the car futzing with the phone is not my idea of how a car should have to be unlocked.

Now my phone key unlocks the car but wont start the car. Now I need to use the card key to start the car.. Phuque!!! Two Keysy??? Really!!! I think The GM-EV1 had the best ever keyless entry/start. bar none!!! and it was so simple. no key, no card, no fob!!! no sh*t

 

[N5329K]

Count your blessings. If Google Glass had been a hit, then you'd be wearing smart, dumb-looking spectacles to use as your Model 3 key. Of course, we'd also have a HUD...
Robin

 

[slipnslider]

Count your blessings. If Google Glass had been a hit, then you'd be wearing smart, dumb-looking spectacles to use as your Model 3 key. Of course, we'd also have a HUD...
Robin

Hopefully this ill conceived phone key has the same fate as google glass. Loved by a few ubernerds and rejected by the rest of humanity.

 

[Argyle]

In fairness, as much as I have been complaining in this thread, it DOES work like 90%+ of the time. I don't think that's acceptable, but there was an app update pushed out yesterday and afterwards so far it hasn't failed yet...I did see the BT stack crash on my phone (Pixel 2 XL on latest update) once, but it seemed to recover immediately afterwards.

Of course since the failures are intermittent I probably jinxed myself, but here's hoping things really are better with the new version of the app.

Edit: just got a slow unlock, lol

 

[JES2]

Hopefully this ill conceived phone key has the same fate as google glass. Loved by a few ubernerds and rejected by the rest of humanity.

On another Forum board, a poster noticed that he received an update that:

"Looking at the phone’s screen I now have an i circled on the far right. Pressing the icon brings up a screen informing me of the possible need to check the iPhone Bluetooth settings. I also noticed when I got in my car today a message at the bottom center of the car’s monitor informing me about connectivity. It quickly changed from “no connectivity” as I reached to shift into reverse. This is the first time for each notification (or, the first time I noticed)."

They seem to be trying to fix the problem, but I am just not sure they can get to a high level of reliability with so many changing variables.

 

[chriscrewdson]

My experience with the "phone as key" has also been impressively bad, with an anecdotal 50% fail/success rate. I would love to buy a fob again if that was an option. It's embarrassing for both me and Tesla to be showing someone the "new" Model 3 and have to restart my phone and take 2 minutes just to start the car without digging a keycard out of my wallet.

 

[Pinot.Noir]

Yep, suffered the embarrassment of wanting to show a friend the interior "if only I could open the car" this past weekend. I will never hear the end of it. His Ford opens just fine 100 percent of the time! Tesla is failing here!

 

[slipnslider]

They seem to be trying to fix the problem, but I am just not sure they can get to a high level of reliability with so many changing variables.

That's exactly the problem though. Those variables will always be changing, unless tesla starts making phones. Right now they only control one side of a two sided system. That will create problems for the lifespan of the system.