This is not the message promulgated by Tesla.
When the CEO still drives his Tesla hands-off-the-wheel whilst being interviewed, it shows that the attitude at the top is more like "hands on the wheel" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge - not really haha).
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Phone Distracted Driver on Autopilot Slams into Firetruck
- Thread starter cwerdna
- Start date
When the CEO still drives his Tesla hands-off-the-wheel whilst being interviewed, it shows that the attitude at the top is more like "hands on the wheel" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge - not really haha).
Hands on or off the wheel is secondary. Watching and paying attention to the traffic ahead of you and being cognizant of your surroundings is the most important thing a driver should do, AP or no AP.
You could keep both the hands on the wheel, but still be zoned out and crash the car.
You could keep both the hands on the wheel, but still be zoned out and crash the car.
thegruf
Active Member
Like everyone else on here I get fed up with the hyperbole.
To be fair though Tesla the disruptive new kid on the block have kinda prodded the establishment bear and continue to do so, so it's not entirely to be unexpected
There are however two legitimate areas of concern (much though I hate to list them)
The regularity of, and best practice for extinguishing battery fires
An effectively new category of acidents for L2 driver assist vehicles where the driver has become inattentive/complacent.
what is often glossed over though is that the Model S is a very seriously high performance car by typical standards.
I think the idea that you could set a max speed; a max acceleration%, and even a % over speed limit (at least in areas where the database is accurate) for a user profile is great and key coding/passcoding for full performance. My wife would love this as she is genuinely scared by the performance. If Tesla were to introduce this (trivial s/w), I think it would be universally seen as a great safety response and place serious questions for other manufacturers.
A BEV is also heavy (obv) but the two together mean that when things do go wrong and traction is lost there is a lot of inertia involved; there is also no engine under the hood - all this means that almost any accident will look severe (sic newsworthy) as the car structure absorbs the impact.
To be fair though Tesla the disruptive new kid on the block have kinda prodded the establishment bear and continue to do so, so it's not entirely to be unexpected
There are however two legitimate areas of concern (much though I hate to list them)
The regularity of, and best practice for extinguishing battery fires
An effectively new category of acidents for L2 driver assist vehicles where the driver has become inattentive/complacent.
what is often glossed over though is that the Model S is a very seriously high performance car by typical standards.
I think the idea that you could set a max speed; a max acceleration%, and even a % over speed limit (at least in areas where the database is accurate) for a user profile is great and key coding/passcoding for full performance. My wife would love this as she is genuinely scared by the performance. If Tesla were to introduce this (trivial s/w), I think it would be universally seen as a great safety response and place serious questions for other manufacturers.
A BEV is also heavy (obv) but the two together mean that when things do go wrong and traction is lost there is a lot of inertia involved; there is also no engine under the hood - all this means that almost any accident will look severe (sic newsworthy) as the car structure absorbs the impact.
2018 Tesla Model 3
2017 Tesla Model S (Models built after 2016)
- click the Front Crash Prevention, side menu option
We don't know if Model 3 or S can avoid a collision at the slightly higher relative approach speed of 30mph/50kph since, unlike the Volvo Euro NCAP tests shown below, this isn't part of the IIHS process.
2017 Tesla Model S (Models built after 2016)
- click the Front Crash Prevention, side menu option
We don't know if Model 3 or S can avoid a collision at the slightly higher relative approach speed of 30mph/50kph since, unlike the Volvo Euro NCAP tests shown below, this isn't part of the IIHS process.
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All driver assist systems have limitations - and ultimately it's the driver that must take responsibility.
Tesla could and should do more to educate drivers on the limitations of the current AP software. They're aware of the areas where the software appears to be working well - and those areas where they don't have as much confidence. A few statements in the owners manual, that few drivers have likely read aren't enough. The pop-up reminding drivers to pay attention and keep their hands on the steering wheel - is not enough. And releasing updates without any information as to what changes have been made, relying on owners to guess the improvements in each release - is not enough.
With a few simple steps, Tesla could provide more information to drivers on the current state of the AP software, and remind them of limitations.
They could add a setting to constrain AutoSteer only to limited access highways, where the conditions are simpler, and AutoSteer should be more reliable.
They could detect presence of tools like the AP Buddy that tries to trick the AP software into believing the driver is maintaining contact on the steering wheel.
And, they could provide more visual indicators on the dashboard display (at least as an option) to provide driver's confirmation of the objects AP is detecting and perhaps the relative distance ahead.
There is a risk that if Tesla doesn't do something about this, they could be facing restrictions, at least in some locations, in activating AP.
Tesla could and should do more to educate drivers on the limitations of the current AP software. They're aware of the areas where the software appears to be working well - and those areas where they don't have as much confidence. A few statements in the owners manual, that few drivers have likely read aren't enough. The pop-up reminding drivers to pay attention and keep their hands on the steering wheel - is not enough. And releasing updates without any information as to what changes have been made, relying on owners to guess the improvements in each release - is not enough.
With a few simple steps, Tesla could provide more information to drivers on the current state of the AP software, and remind them of limitations.
They could add a setting to constrain AutoSteer only to limited access highways, where the conditions are simpler, and AutoSteer should be more reliable.
They could detect presence of tools like the AP Buddy that tries to trick the AP software into believing the driver is maintaining contact on the steering wheel.
And, they could provide more visual indicators on the dashboard display (at least as an option) to provide driver's confirmation of the objects AP is detecting and perhaps the relative distance ahead.
There is a risk that if Tesla doesn't do something about this, they could be facing restrictions, at least in some locations, in activating AP.
Your honor, I stuck out my penis in church
because of that car salesman, right there!
points
He told me if I bought this car,
women everywhere would want to have sex with me.
So instead of putting in the effort to make the this safety-technology work, and delaying release until it did work, Tesla just decided to release what it had without the safety technology.
This isn't the way things should work. Other manufacturers clearly did wait until they got the safety tech right.
Elon's desire to be first-to-market, decisions about how much to spend on R&D, and self-imposed need to deliver features which he promised and sold to customers before the product was ready shouldn't trump safety.
And not just AP.
There are lots of people who assume that AEB will always stop any car. Not true; above about 25mph it will only slow the car and not stop it.
And sometimes - not even at 25 mph:-
Click the "Front crash prevention" side menu option on this page: 2018 Volvo V60
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Tesla did not simply release this technology. They have been releasing it bit by bit as the technology has advanced.
Their original technology, with Mobile Eye was state of the art and world class. When that relationship dissolved, Tesla embarded on a new, future path, to develop full self driving.
At first it was a step backwards, as they needed to start fresh with a program that will eventurally result in full self driving.
They significantly upgraded their vehicle sensor package with much faster and more capable computers. They added better ultrasonics and more video cameras. They brought in house a fantastic neural network computer system to begin to gather data from all the current Tesla on the road. Tesla is using all this tremendous on road data to further develop a self driving system far superior to all the others.
Little by little they have been releasing free, over the air, updates that have been making their system better, more stable and more capable. They have further upgraded their sensor packages with even faster computers and additonal higher featured video cameras and MCU enhancements.
Other companies are announcing that they have something better coming out in the future, but until it gets released and evaluated, I will hold my judgement that they will be superior to Tesla.
Their original technology, with Mobile Eye was state of the art and world class. When that relationship dissolved, Tesla embarded on a new, future path, to develop full self driving.
At first it was a step backwards, as they needed to start fresh with a program that will eventurally result in full self driving.
They significantly upgraded their vehicle sensor package with much faster and more capable computers. They added better ultrasonics and more video cameras. They brought in house a fantastic neural network computer system to begin to gather data from all the current Tesla on the road. Tesla is using all this tremendous on road data to further develop a self driving system far superior to all the others.
Little by little they have been releasing free, over the air, updates that have been making their system better, more stable and more capable. They have further upgraded their sensor packages with even faster computers and additonal higher featured video cameras and MCU enhancements.
Other companies are announcing that they have something better coming out in the future, but until it gets released and evaluated, I will hold my judgement that they will be superior to Tesla.
None of this matters if Autopilot keeps crashing into things. THAT narrative is already out there and spreading. Knowing how public perception and social media work, it's only going to get worse. This isn't something Tesla can get ahead of. Tesla created this.
I reiterate my previous comment that the only way to fix all that is to make autopilot software better there is no work around. If Tesla decide to put more restrictions it would render this feature useless for majority of cases.
We now see spike in the autopilot related crashes and and we probably will see more as development progresses, the reason is the system becomes more robust and more and more people start rely on it more often (btw, I'm on of them).
We now see spike in the autopilot related crashes and and we probably will see more as development progresses, the reason is the system becomes more robust and more and more people start rely on it more often (btw, I'm on of them).
And, by my book, that's the problem. Some things can't be released bit-by-bit, but need to be developed and tested in-house and only released when they are basically perfected. By my book, a convenience feature that has an impact on traffic safety is exactly the kind of thing that should not be released bit-by-bit.
Of course, a big(huge) part of that is accidents suddenly being national news that wouldn’t have been before. When some kids in FL go for a joyride and crash into a wall going 60 in a 30, or a Model S crashes into a stopped vehicle causing the driver to break her ankle, with no injuries to the other driver, and both of those become national or international news, it’s easy to make it seem like they’re crashing all the time.
Imagine how scary driving, say, a Toyota Corolla, would seem if every single accident involving one was front page national news.
It's a judgment call. If you wait until it is perfect, we would never have MS windows, cable tv, cell phones, medicine, fire, and flintstones.
At least in this case the convenience feature that statistically makes cars less likely to have air bag deployments and collision claims. See my earlier post for facts and evidence and links.
MS Windows, cable tv and cell phones don't have the kind of real world direct physical safety impacts that a car does. Medicines need to prove their effectiveness to a regulator before being sold. Fire and flintstones, it seems to me, were perfected at the point they were discovered ( were discovered in prehistoric times, when there would have been a different risk analysis).
As you know, I disagree that there is evidence that AS has actually increased the safety of the car, and my best guess is that it does not improve safety. Certainly, Tesla never proved AS's alleged safety benefit to any reliable agency or institution before releasing it (nor was Tesla required to). Elon released to product based on his judgement, and he had a strong incentive to release the product fast even if it meant taking public safety risks that other big companies wouldn't be willing to take.
That's kind of uncalled for. I explained my reasoning in great detail in the Mountain View crash thread. As you know, I think that there is a huge safety impact from AEB, TACC and other features, and that hides a negative or neutral concurrent impact by AS on safety. Your sources don't (and can't) break out AS from the other features, and I find it absolutely unbelievable that AS alone caused a 40% decrease in air bag crashes (and unless you believe that AS caused all of the increase, the evidence doesn't say anything about whether it contributed to any of the increase).
You and I aren't going to agree on this. And we went back and forth on it in the other thread. My hypothesis is definitely not disproved by the data you present, nor is yours proved. Until there is more data, we just have two competing hypothesizes.
Tesla Model S was on Autopilot, Utah driver tells police says
Maybe one of the mods can edit the thread title to indicate autopilot was engaged?
Also, the story says the "driver" says she was distracted by her phone.
Maybe one of the mods can edit the thread title to indicate autopilot was engaged?
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