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Pics/Info: Inside the Tesla 100 kWh Battery Pack

FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
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Silicon Valley
Because they said S/X would get improvements.
They didn't specify any specific years or future... they said and implied that all S/X would get improved rates.

Introducing V3 Supercharging

Agreed... the language from Tesla is misleading. :cool:

upload_2019-4-1_19-52-4.png
 

wdolson

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Jul 24, 2015
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Clark Co, WA
I still think we are a ways off from 2170's in S/X. You have to remember how much Panasonic has tooled for the 18650, and how much the 2170's are needed for 3 and powerwall. This isn't a lightswitch type of thing. *Maybe* it is a thing where new sections of the gigafactory will slowly transition their area to 2170 production, but I don't believe it will just happen overnight. Panasonic would be left holding a huge bag.... of 18650's without a use.

At this point Tesla is making a lot more 2170s at the GF1 than they are importing 18650s. I remember reading somewhere that Tesla did not plan to make batteries in Shanghai, at least initially. I could see them moving battery production to the US for the S and X, expanding the GF1, then have Panasonic retool their Asian factories to supply 2170s to the Shanghai factory.

If they switched over to 2170s for the S and X sometime 2nd or 3rd Q this year, that would give Panasonic the time to retool their plants in Asia for the 2170s for Asian built Model 3s.

The changes to the production line is not that great. It isn't like they are going from making one battery chemistry to something completely different (like lead acid to li-ion). The machines need to have all the fittings changed for the larger cells, but the overall process is the same.

I'll never forget Elon telling us back in 2011 that Tesla was going to come out with a car that could go 300 miles and a car that would cost 50k. The S could go 300 miles with an 85kwh pack (at 55mph....), but certainly not at the price-point of the 40kwh Model S. That guy has been feeding us half-truths at best for almost a decade. And at worst, lies. Yeah, telling people things that aren't true, that's called lying.

We have a car now that costs under $50K that can go 300 miles, it just isn't a Model S. The starting price of the LR Model 3 is $45K.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
20,378
51,592
Oregon
I remember reading somewhere that Tesla did not plan to make batteries in Shanghai, at least initially.

I think they said that initially, but then after having talks with local suppliers they gave up. The last thing Elon said is that by the end of this year GF3 will be the combination of Fremont and GF1. That would mean cell production included.
 

Electroman

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
7,507
11,025
TX
I'll never forget Elon telling us back in 2011 that Tesla was going to come out with a car that could go 300 miles and a car that would cost 50k. The S could go 300 miles with an 85kwh pack (at 55mph....), but certainly not at the price-point of the 40kwh Model S. That guy has been feeding us half-truths at best for almost a decade. And at worst, lies. Yeah, telling people things that aren't true, that's called lying.

What?? Ever heard of the LR3 RWD? It is less than $45K before Fed tax incentives with a range of 325 miles. So in just 8 years, Musk over delivered, with $5K less and 25 miles more range.

Half truths and lies do you say? Just like the dozens of announcements made by VW, Audi, BMW in the last 10 years. Why don't you do the research and report back here.

If you were trying to lie and troll, you will have better luck at Seeking Lies and TSLQ twitter feeds.
 

Electroman

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
7,507
11,025
TX
I'll never forget Elon telling us back in 2011 that Tesla was going to come out with a car that could go 300 miles and a car that would cost 50k. The S could go 300 miles with an 85kwh pack (at 55mph....), but certainly not at the price-point of the 40kwh Model S. That guy has been feeding us half-truths at best for almost a decade. And at worst, lies. Yeah, telling people things that aren't true, that's called lying.

Here are real lies that you failed to point out. Now it is your turn to find lies from BMW, Mercedes and VW.

Alter Viggo on Twitter
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
6,212
15,194
Hickory, NC, USA
Pretty sure the lie portion was that Muck clearly wasn't referring to the Model 3 at the time, and instead was referring to the Model S when making the announcement that @supratachophobia was referring to. Yes, it was a lie. Still is a lie, and will likely continue to remain a lie. There's just no getting around that. The fact they released the Model 3 some 8 years later with such a spec doesn't excuse lies about the Model S at the time.

That said, the range shenanigans are slightly more forgivable to me than the capacity lies, the power lies, autopilot lies, etc.

As for other brands... um, sorry... no one cares. This is a Tesla forum. I personally own only a couple of non-Tesla vehicles... one is a motorcycle, the other is a 25 year old pickup truck... and my 3000EV doesn't really count anymore since it's mostly Tesla-inside. I have zero reason to give half-a-s*** about what some other brand does on the EV front until they have something that even comes close to matching the Tesla supercharger network in the USA. Until then, Tesla it is, company flaws and all.
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
23,906
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Central New York
I'll never forget Elon telling us back in 2011 that Tesla was going to come out with a car that could go 300 miles and a car that would cost 50k.

Pretty sure the lie portion was that Muck clearly wasn't referring to the Model 3 at the time, and instead was referring to the Model S when making the announcement that @supratachophobia was referring to. Yes, it was a lie. Still is a lie, and will likely continue to remain a lie. There's just no getting around that.

If Elon said that the $50K car would go 300 miles you'd have a point. I don't remember that wording but I could be mistaken.
In 2008 Tesla under Ze'ev Drori said:
Model S is Tesla’s zero-emission, five-passenger luxury sedan powered by a lithium-ion battery pack. It is expected to have a base price of about $60,000 and get about 240 miles per charge with exceptional performance.
Tesla Motors to Produce All-electric Luxury Sedan in California | Tesla, Inc.
 
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That said, the range shenanigans are slightly more forgivable to me than the capacity lies, the power lies, autopilot lies, etc.

Is it more or less impossible for them to bump the amps allowed for the older models slightly? I know you already ruled out v3 levels but say that the 100 packs would shift the charging curve to peak at 140 kW instead of the almost 120 they do now, and taper less aggressively? And the 75 packs get bumped in the same manor to say 110 kW peak. That would at least cut charging time by a few minutes.

I mean they only said they would release an OTA update that would increase charging speeds, not by how much so they could be technically correct in their statement (although misleading) even if it is a small bump
 
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Pretty sure the lie portion was that Muck clearly wasn't referring to the Model 3 at the time, and instead was referring to the Model S when making the announcement that @supratachophobia was referring to. Yes, it was a lie. Still is a lie, and will likely continue to remain a lie. There's just no getting around that. The fact they released the Model 3 some 8 years later with such a spec doesn't excuse lies about the Model S at the time.

That said, the range shenanigans are slightly more forgivable to me than the capacity lies, the power lies, autopilot lies, etc.

As for other brands... um, sorry... no one cares. This is a Tesla forum. I personally own only a couple of non-Tesla vehicles... one is a motorcycle, the other is a 25 year old pickup truck... and my 3000EV doesn't really count anymore since it's mostly Tesla-inside. I have zero reason to give half-a-s*** about what some other brand does on the EV front until they have something that even comes close to matching the Tesla supercharger network in the USA. Until then, Tesla it is, company flaws and all.

The supercharger network is the moat that protects the Tesla castle.
 
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You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Musk - in this particular case - achieved exactly what he said he will.
At the time, he was referring to Model S. Model 3 wasn't even a resolved twinkle in Franz' eye yet. Still lying...

Oh, and remember how APv1 was supposed to be able to come pick you up in a private parking lot? And remember how they fixed those drive units on, like the 5th revision. And don't forget that time he had funding secured for a buy-out. Wait, ohhhhhh.......
 
At the time, he was referring to Model S. Model 3 wasn't even a resolved twinkle in Franz' eye yet. Still lying...

Oh, and remember how APv1 was supposed to be able to come pick you up in a private parking lot? And remember how they fixed those drive units on, like the 5th revision. And don't forget that time he had funding secured for a buy-out. Wait, ohhhhhh.......
Your belief that other people deliberately lied to you, just because events turned out different than you anticipated, is really a problem that results from your world view. There are other reasonable explanations; and if you don't believe there are, you are not being reasonable.

AP1 did not fulfill Elon's early ambitions because of what happened between Tesla and MobileEye, not because someone was deliberately lying just to screw @supratachophobia. Drive unit problems were not due to someone lying, but due to typical early part failure before enough is learned about how they fail and wear. And Elon tweeting "funding secured" was not a lie, but a naive assertion based upon his (possibly accurate) belief that the money needed would indeed be available (I say naive because the SEC views that statement as implying far more than Elon did).
 

wdolson

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Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
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Clark Co, WA
Elon has a problem getting out ahead of his skis. He is a Physicist by training and an engineer at heart. He's poor at manufacturing, estimating time, and costs. Unfortunately he thinks he's as great an industrialist and manager as he is an engineer/Physicist. When he's figuring out if something can be done, he goes back to basic Physics principles and works it out, but once he's determined it is possible, there is a certain part of his mind who considers it done, even though there is years of effort making it a reality still to be done.

He's made a number of exaggerated claims that didn't happen because he was overly optimistic. It's frustrating and it's gotten him in hot water with regulators now. Maybe the SEC is being a bit harsh with him, but he does have a problem making claims that turn out to be untrue. Unlike some con men we may be able to think of, Elon is sincere when he says these things.

It's quite possible that summon with AP1 could have been better with the sensor suite on the car, but the processing power wasn't up to the job. Elon under estimated that. He's consistently under estimated how much computing power was going to be needed to do full self driving. Maybe V3's computer will be up to the job finally, but it's been a lot of hit and miss to get that far.
 

wdolson

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Jul 24, 2015
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Clark Co, WA
Do I remember correctly that the new battery's form factor is not compatible with S/X without a major re-design of the bottom of the car? If I am, no new cells for S/X. That's my understanding from quarterly calls last year (and perhaps the year before).

This is the right thread to ask about that. I recall way upthread @wk057 thought there was enough room in the pack for 2170s, but the modules would probably need a complete redesign. The plumbing for the pack cooling/heating probably would need redesign too. Maybe there is something requiring a more extensive rework that Jason missed and Tesla found out when they got in there?
 
Do I remember correctly that the new battery's form factor is not compatible with S/X without a major re-design of the bottom of the car? If I am, no new cells for S/X. That's my understanding from quarterly calls last year (and perhaps the year before).

I think Tesla is going to come at this pretty hard that they want you in a new car rather than give you a battery upgrade. So a 2170 pack on existing platform isn't going to happen from a sales perspective. At first it made sense to not offer battery upgrades because pack cost per kw was still dropping. But now that's basically settled down to that magic $100-150 per kw or so, there is no reason not to offer them since it wouldnt erode resale value now. But a car is way higher margin than a pack and Tesla needs money, so there you have it. I'm pleased with the car portion of my Tesla. I'm very unimpressed that tesla jerks the owner around with the range calculation and the degredation had been extreme so far. It seems like a 2170 pack would be a great upgrade, which is why I'm glad wk057 pioneered that cottage industry a while back.
 

wdolson

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Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
9,251
19,855
Clark Co, WA
I think Tesla is going to come at this pretty hard that they want you in a new car rather than give you a battery upgrade. So a 2170 pack on existing platform isn't going to happen from a sales perspective. At first it made sense to not offer battery upgrades because pack cost per kw was still dropping. But now that's basically settled down to that magic $100-150 per kw or so, there is no reason not to offer them since it wouldnt erode resale value now. But a car is way higher margin than a pack and Tesla needs money, so there you have it. I'm pleased with the car portion of my Tesla. I'm very unimpressed that tesla jerks the owner around with the range calculation and the degredation had been extreme so far. It seems like a 2170 pack would be a great upgrade, which is why I'm glad wk057 pioneered that cottage industry a while back.

They also don't want to put bigger packs in the cars with free supercharging. Though I suppose they could offer an upgrade, but free supercharging goes away.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
6,212
15,194
Hickory, NC, USA
Well, one of my ongoing projects is being able to replace a Tesla battery pack with a non-Tesla battery pack.

Right now, I've been driving a Model S almost daily that has no Tesla battery pack (empty pack casing with a dummy coolant loop), that believes it has a Tesla battery pack, but instead is running off of one Chevy Volt battery secured in the trunk. I've completely reverse engineered the Tesla BMS, protocols, etc, and have the car convinced that it has a 15 kWh battery pack with ~50 miles of range... and it works pretty well so far. Onboard chargers work, and technically could make supercharging work if the pack were large enough. This is mostly a proof of concept.

In the end, I'll be able to make fully aftermarket Tesla battery packs with various targets (range or power or both), and they'll be just bolt-in replacements that any shop can do (no need to fiddle with firmware, the pack handles all of that).

2019-03-13%2007.52.40-1080.jpg

Was trying to find a pic of a full charge, but don't have anything handy... and at the time this was taken, the BMS wasn't reporting energy usage to the counters that tally it for the UI yet, so 0 kWh used since last charge, lol.

I think Tesla could easily make a 2170 pack for the S/X in the same form factor, but they're not going to do it. I'll probably have to do it at some point... but first I need to make my 2100A discharge capable Model S battery. :cool:
 
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Well, one of my ongoing projects is being able to replace a Tesla battery pack with a non-Tesla battery pack.

Right now, I've been driving a Model S almost daily that has no Tesla battery pack (empty pack casing with a dummy coolant loop), that believes it has a Tesla battery pack, but instead is running off of one Chevy Volt battery secured in the trunk. I've completely reverse engineered the Tesla BMS, protocols, etc, and have the car convinced that it has a 15 kWh battery pack with ~50 miles of range... and it works pretty well so far. Onboard chargers work, and technically could make supercharging work if the pack were large enough. This is mostly a proof of concept.

In the end, I'll be able to make fully aftermarket Tesla battery packs with various targets (range or power or both), and they'll be just bolt-in replacements that any shop can do (no need to fiddle with firmware, the pack handles all of that).

2019-03-13%2007.52.40-1080.jpg

Was trying to find a pic of a full charge, but don't have anything handy... and at the time this was taken, the BMS wasn't reporting energy usage to the counters that tally it for the UI yet, so 0 kWh used since last charge, lol.

I think Tesla could easily make a 2160 pack for the S/X in the same form factor, but they're not going to do it. I'll probably have to do it at some point... but first I need to make my 2100A discharge capable Model S battery. :cool:

I have access to a large undisclosed quantity of Nissan Leaf batteries if you are interested.....
 
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