Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[calleserra]

I must have missed all the threads of the pre-Palladium Model S with dozens of pictures of rear tires coming apart? I don't recall seeing any, and we've been driving MS's since 2013.

Sorry, but I'll have to disagree completely.

Inner tread tire wear is one thing, and tread/sidewall separation is something else entirely--the 21" Michelin rear tires are physically coming apart. This is especially interesting as the tread in many photographs shows minimal wear on the inside edge . . . .

But perhaps having tires come apart is okay for some here? It's not for me, hence my efforts to escalate this to a NHTSA recall and get the bad tires off the road before someone gets hurt.

I had a Dec.2014 P85D that I handed down to my son. It currently has 30k miles on it’s Michelin Pilot Super Sports tires with even tread wear on stock suspension. For those with pre-refresh Model S (2021+), here’s the alignment specs that I used from a poster at the then factory Tesla owners forum:
Lolachampcar’s recommended alignment settings for P85D:
Front:
Camber -0.70
Caster 3.55
Toe -0.04

Rear:
Camber (fixed)
Toe 0.15

 

[calleserra]

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but on my 2014 P85+ (with air suspension and large rear drive unit, 21" wheels), I had some Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires fail in the same manner (*not* Tesla OEM, but the Super Sports). The tread was worn down better across the tire than many of the other pics in this thread but it still seems like premature failure. I can't find the receipt but I've had these tires for approximately 2 years and 15,000 - 20,000 miles I think. I've only owned the car about 4 years and this is the second time I've had the rear tires fail in the same manner (first time was Tesla OEM Michelin Pilot Sports). Recently, the front tires failed in the same manner as well. They were also Tesla OEM Michelin Pilot Sports.
View attachment 908060
Having said that, I've had cars for 30+ years, currently have a 4 car family, and the only 3 times in my life that I've had tires fail in this manner have been the 3 times I've replaced tires on this Model S since I bought it used a few years ago. Every other time I've replaced tires, including on some sporty cars (and an infamous Ford Exploder/Rollover SUV) have had tires wear down evenly until they were visibly at the end of their tread life or catastrophically blown out by nails/debris/curbs.

I'm trying Falken Azenis FK510s now. We'll see if they fail the same way.

I had a P85D which my son drives now with 30k miles and a little bit more to go on its Michelin 21” PSS, and had great success from using another owner’s specs:
Lolachampcar’s recommended alignment settings for P85D:
Front:
Camber -0.70
Caster 3.55
Toe -0.04

Rear:
Camber (fixed)
Toe 0.15

 

[Sam1]

The 19” is great but the 21” remains a mystery.

It is anything but a mystery.

 

[calleserra]

Take a look at Tesla's slide:

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/jzQog/s1/tesla-model-s-plaid-delivery-day-perfect-power-curve.jpg

The 2019 Performance has more HP than the Plaid below 35 mph. HP = Torque * RPM, so the plaid has slightly less wheel torque. However, the Plaid maintains that torque until well over 60 mph, and then holds nearly constant power to 200 mph.

The gearing is slightly taller on the Plaid, so that it can have that absurd top speed.

I'd bet the 2019 Performance is slightly faster to 35 mph, but it is meaningless since the car gets to 35 mph so fast.

Yes. The Raven has on average a nudge faster 0-60 ft time slips than the Plaid. Check out Tesla Plaid Channel when the Plaid was first launched on the drag strip the night of delivery day. You have to go back two years.

 

[calleserra]

We reduce camber. it becomes less negative. I know the math and lingo is confusing. We include everything you need in the kit, including simple instructions. No re-alignment is necessary if your toe is already within spec.

You get more useable grip and better tire wear. We adjust camber it to where it should have been from the factory.

I make performance upgrades for many vehicles and have been in business for 18 years. I'm in the business of making happy customers. I'm used to critics that never tried my products. I do offer tech support and guarantee you will be happy with the results.

Does your kit come with longer bolts to compensate for the introduction of the shim?

 

[calleserra]

Are there shims available for 2014 performance suspension? Or is this only available on newer years?

Ive used these settings on a P85D with the + suspension, all oem. Ive got30k miles on Michelin PSS of even wear and still counting. My son drives it now.
Recommended alignment settings for P85D:
Front:
Camber -0.70
Caster 3.55
Toe -0.04

Rear:
Camber (fixed)
Toe 0.15

 

[calleserra]

That is why I went low-key with the Macsboost camber kit. It draws a lot less attention to the issue and than bright colorful adjustable camber arms.

How’s the tread wear been after the Macsboost kit install?

 

[calleserra]

Short update:

I went to my local Michelin dealer and gave them my case number from my online incident. My local dealer recorded the DOT codes and the tread depths in the middle, inside, and outside edges and sent them to Michelin. He said that the new tires would be in in two days (Thursday), and that Michelin is working the case now. Additionally, I have an appointment with Tesla on Friday, which I will cancel if Michelin comes through on Thursday.

I will post updates as things move forward (or not). I am still hoping to get more case numbers, especially from people who had their rear tires replaced under warranty for no charge, either by Michelin or by Tesla.

Here is the email I received from Michelin:

Hello Joe,​

​

Case #03998297:​

​

Thanks for contacting the Michelin Consumer Care Team.​

​

We are very sorry to hear you are experiencing a tread separation issue.​

​

?Our Standard Manufacturer's Limited Warranty covers defects in workmanship and materials for the life of the original usable tread, OR for 6 years from date of purchase, whichever occurs first. ​

​

We recommend taking your vehicle to an authorized Michelin dealer for an inspection of your tires. Please have the dealer contact us at the number below and refer to your case number when providing their inspection results for our review. You can use our Dealer Locator to find participating dealers in your area.​

​

We also recommend that you call the dealer first and tell them that it is for a warranty inspection. Please call the number below if you need any assistance locating a dealer to assist you.​

​

Please Note: The dealer must call us with their inspection results for our review. We do not accept inspection results in any other form or format and we cannot process your claim without this review.​

​

​

We hope this issue has been addressed to your satisfaction. If we can assist you further, please respond to this email, click here to chat, or call us at 866-866-6605 8am-7pm EST Mon-Fri, and 9am-1pm EST Sat.​

​

​

We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.​

​

Sincerely,​

​

Ian​

Consumer Care Department​

Certified Michelin Product Expert​

Tire Warranty Tire Registration
It's important that you get all the safety- Make sure your tires are properly
related materials that come with the purchase registered to receive direct notifications
of new MICHELIN tires. If you did not receive in the event of a safety-related recall.
a warranty book, you can download one at Visit TireRegistration.com to register.
MichelinMan.com/warranty .

Do you get the Michelin warranty money in the form of a check or Visa card?

 

[n2mb_racing]

Do you get the Michelin warranty money in the form of a check or Visa card?

Direct deposit into my checking account.

 

[calleserra]

I would like to note, as @Sam1 suggested, my toe settings were completely out, and the left tire, which had the worst wear, also had the worst toe-out. I am happy that I purchased the adjustable camber arms so that I can dial-in camber, however, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the toe-out played a role in my tire wear. Tesla owns this fully in my opinion. I sure wish I had an alignment done as soon as I purchased my Model S Plaid in April of this year. I could have saved myself some grief, I think.

Joe

It might be that your Plaid was in perfect alignment when you bought it in April, but the weight of the car stressing the suspension bushings caused the alignment to shift after a few months. Now that the car has settled a bit is a great time for that re-alignment. This is just a theory.

 

[calleserra]

Yes. It did not help. What did seem to help was to run the rears at 42 psi all the time. That got me 17,000 miles out of the last set.

Thanks! Curious what psi you were running BEFORE upping to 42?

 

[calleserra]

Sorry for the seemingly repeated posts above. I binge read the entire 77 pages today to catch up as Im having the 21” PS4S issue as well. I had the 19” Pirellis for the first 18k miles and no issues and still at 6/32 across evenly. I drive the car like a Prius except for occasional on ramp blitz. removed the 19s and installed the 21” PS4S on Arachnids because I love how it looks like but stayed away from it because of ride issue associated with 21s coming from a P85D with + suspension. The refresh dynamic suspension greatly improved the ride on the 21s but now I’m seeing the dreaded unusual aggravated tire shoulder wear problem after 6k miles. Always set at 42 psi. I’m heading down next week for my algnment appointment at a custom suspension shop. I’m keeping my suspension all factory and will discuss the alignment numbers with the shop, specifically the toe as the rear camber is fixed, as discussed in this forum. After that, I’ll install PS4S BMW-specific non-acoustic Made in France for the rears. Thank you all. Will let you know the progress.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Sorry for the seemingly repeated posts above. I binge read the entire 77 pages today to catch up as Im having the 21” PS4S issue as well. I had the 19” Pirellis for the first 18k miles and no issues and still at 6/32 across evenly. I drive the car like a Prius except for occasional on ramp blitz. removed the 19s and installed the 21” PS4S on Arachnids because I love how it looks like but stayed away from it because of ride issue associated with 21s coming from a P85D with + suspension. The refresh dynamic suspension greatly improved the ride on the 21s but now I’m seeing the dreaded unusual aggravated tire shoulder wear problem after 6k miles. Always set at 42 psi. I’m heading down next week for my algnment appointment at a custom suspension shop. I’m keeping my suspension all factory and will discuss the alignment numbers with the shop, specifically the toe as the rear camber is fixed, as discussed in this forum. After that, I’ll install PS4S BMW-specific non-acoustic Made in France for the rears. Thank you all. Will let you know the progress.

I'd go with the Tesla spec foam tires and a good alignment. Quiet is important to me.

 

[PR0FESSOR]

Funny you should mention this. I measured the sound spectrum on my MSP, and tomorrow I am having non-Tesla spec PS4S on my new 20” track package and I will measure the sound spectrum on the same road at the same speed(s) and post the results in this forum.

The physics side of me suspects that the difference will be relatively minor, but we will see!

Joe

I'd go with the Tesla spec foam tires and a good alignment. Quiet is important to me.

 

[xEvoLveDx]

In my experience, the non foam ps4s tires on my 20" wheels are not noticeably louder than the foam 21" ps4s tires; however, it very much depends on the road surface. There are certain surfaces where I can hear a bit more noise but it is not crazy loud or anything. It's been a non-issue for me.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Funny you should mention this. I measured the sound spectrum on my MSP, and tomorrow I am having non-Tesla spec PS4S on my new 20” track package and I will measure the sound spectrum on the same road at the same speed(s) and post the results in this forum.

The physics side of me suspects that the difference will be relatively minor, but we will see!

Joe

I want to know the results of this! I want to get the track pack and do the same thing.

 

[KingJames]

Pilot Sport 4S are not a long lasting tire, have them on my 911 Turbo too, get about 8k miles on the rears before they are worn inside same as this more or less. 911 isn't that dissimilar to the Tesla in that rear engine puts a lot of weight on rear tires and steep camber so it smokes the rears quickly. I get 2-3 rear tires to 1 set of fronts on the 911 so suspect the plaid isn't gonna be much different.

 

[HighPotential]

Thanks! Curious what psi you were running BEFORE upping to 42?

40 all around. Sometimes I wonder if letting them get to 38 and then hitting the throttle a few times is really bad. Even though 38 shouldn't cause that. Maybe it does. 38 is within the allowable range but I suspect that internal structural damage/failure causes the rapid and unusual wear.

 

[calleserra]

I'd go with the Tesla spec foam tires and a good alignment. Quiet is important to me.

Very much the same here. Ive heard comparisons of recordings and seen actual sound db measurements and it’s about 2-3 db difference. I know that’s a lot for a quiet car. The sound spectrum also changed in that there’s more lower frequencies with the non-acoustic. This will merely be an experiment for me and I suspect the added noise level won’t be bothersome as I’m only replacing the rears and keeping the acoustic tires in the front. So potentially half level sound pressure increase. It’s possible also the BMW tire has a different compound formulation and wear characteristics so anything goes here. Same XL load rating as T2. We’ll see.

 

[calleserra]

Funny you should mention this. I measured the sound spectrum on my MSP, and tomorrow I am having non-Tesla spec PS4S on my new 20” track package and I will measure the sound spectrum on the same road at the same speed(s) and post the results in this forum.

The physics side of me suspects that the difference will be relatively minor, but we will see!

Joe

Yes, please post your results. Im interested!