Happened on my passenger rear, not the driver rear. It just depends on the alignment.
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Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?
- Thread starter KOL2000
- Start date
Happened on my passenger rear, not the driver rear. It just depends on the alignment.
emailforbrett
Member
In that case, I’m gonna have him check my passenger rear tire when he comes back to replace the driver side rear tire. The tire takes a few days to get in stock.
emailforbrett
Member
I checked my passenger rear tire and it is fine. So weird how it affects one side like that. Maybe the tire was defective? Maybe the camber is not right for this tire, or any tire? I wonder if Michelin is working on strengthening their Model S tires. This has to be costing them a lot of warranty claims.
Awiner
Member
You should have an alignment check. I bet your driver side rear toe is out of spec and towed out.
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emailforbrett
Member
The tire doesn’t even look worn to me, like it should if the alignment is off. The tire just split at the tread-sidewall transition. I’ll take it to a shop to have it checked to make sure. Can any tire shop do this, or do I need to take it to Tesla. I had a Masareti and no shops had the equipment to make any adjustments so I always had to go to the dealer. PITA.
Awiner
Member
What you experienced with that side wall split is a classic out of toe spec result. Most competent shops should be able to put your vehicle on an alignment rack and analyze the current suspension settings.
Nope, I suspect not. The vast majority of people just buy a new tire and are rather unaware of the tire safety defect.
I would guess that far less than 10% of MS owners have ever seen this thread, but there's really no way to know--all we have is proxy information--the 21" Michelin tires remain on nationwide backorder for months at a time.
We're having both of our rear tires replaced on one of our MS Plaids (the one with 21" wheels; the 19" Pirelli tire Plaid has zero issues) after about many months of waiting for new tires, in our case for unexplained tire pressure loss (2 to 3 psi per week) and the "lathing" issue on the inner sidewall, on both rear tires (the right rear being worse, like others here).
Alignment was checked at the Tesla Service Center and was exactly on spec according to Tesla. Hope that Tesla and Michelin get to the bottom of this before someone gets hurt or killed, or does history have to repeat? Eventually Plaids will be on the second and third owners, someone will do a "demo" of the high-speed performance of a Plaid, not knowing that their inner sidewall is torn, leading to catastrophic results. Here's an example of just how complicated (and unsafe) tire issues can become when action isn't taken quickly:
The Firestone and Ford tire controversy of the 1990s saw hundreds of people die in automobile crashes caused by the failure of Firestone tires installed on light trucks made by Ford Motor Company.
Unusually high failure rates of P235/75R15 ATX, ATX II, and Wilderness AT tires installed on the first-generation Ford Explorer and similar vehicles caused crashes that killed 238 people and injured around 500 others in the United States alone; more died in other countries.
The revelations halved the market value of Bridgestone, which fired or accepted the resignation of several executives and closed the Decatur, Illinois, factory where the tires were manufactured.[1] Ford also fired or accepted the resignation of executives. Each company publicly blamed the other for the defects, a disagreement that ended the companies' nearly 100-year relationship.[2]
Congressional inquiry into the scandal led to the enactment of the Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation (TREAD) Act in October 2000.
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n2mb_racing
Active Member
Another Elephant in the room here, how many of us are running these tires below the recommended minimum temperature?
Awiner
Member
Here is the issue as I see it.Nope, I suspect not. The vast majority of people just buy a new tire and are rather unaware of the tire safety defect.
I would guess that far less than 10% of MS owners have ever seen this thread, but there's really no way to know--all we have is proxy information--the 21" Michelin tires remain on nationwide backorder for months at a time.
We're having both of our rear tires replaced on one of our MS Plaids (the one with 21" wheels; the 19" Pirelli tire Plaid has zero issues) after about many months of waiting for new tires, in our case for unexplained tire pressure loss (2 to 3 psi per week) and the "lathing" issue on the inner sidewall, on both rear tires (the right rear being worse, like others here).
Alignment was checked at the Tesla Service Center and was exactly on spec according to Tesla. Hope that Tesla and Michelin get to the bottom of this before someone gets hurt or killed, or does history have to repeat? Eventually Plaids will be on the second and third owners, someone will do a "demo" of the high-speed performance of a Plaid, not knowing that their inner sidewall is torn, leading to catastrophic results. Here's an example of just how complicated (and unsafe) tire issues can become when action isn't taken quickly:
The Firestone and Ford tire controversy of the 1990s saw hundreds of people die in automobile crashes caused by the failure of Firestone tires installed on light trucks made by Ford Motor Company.
Unusually high failure rates of P235/75R15 ATX, ATX II, and Wilderness AT tires installed on the first-generation Ford Explorer and similar vehicles caused crashes that killed 238 people and injured around 500 others in the United States alone; more died in other countries.
The revelations halved the market value of Bridgestone, which fired or accepted the resignation of several executives and closed the Decatur, Illinois, factory where the tires were manufactured.[1] Ford also fired or accepted the resignation of executives. Each company publicly blamed the other for the defects, a disagreement that ended the companies' nearly 100-year relationship.[2]
Congressional inquiry into the scandal led to the enactment of the Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation (TREAD) Act in October 2000.
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First Teslas spec on rear toe: 0.05 to 0.35.
Second the bushings used are rubber which have massive amounts of flex and movement upon acceleration and toque causing a negative toe out scenario.
Third, Tesla aligns and verifies alignment in the medium height setting. How many are running at low when they accelerate (drag mode or not)? How many drive larger amounts of highway miles which Tesla defaults to low. How many are lowered causing even more extreme geometry changes? When you align in medium, and the car can then lower what happens? Alignment changes. Rear camber which at medium is a wide spec as well -0.75 to -2.75 becomes even more negative. If Tesla says your rear camber is in spec at -2.75 (again in medium) when you are in low it’s well over -3.00 degrees leaning 2500lbs plus on that inner part of the tire. Add toe out under acceleration or even when running in low and guess what? That inner tire is being tortured.
Tesla really should align in low. If they did that they could at least control the far range of specs as any ride height above would be more beneficial for tires. I assume though they are concerned about decreased handling when run in medium and above. It’s a trade off but we are paying for it.
That is why I went with adjustable rear camber arms and align in low using very specific values in regards to rear toe and camber, as the majority I my driving is in low.
FYI: Alignment was examined in "Low" as well, and all still at spec per the technician at Tesla.
Of note: all of the factors mentioned above apply to the 19" Pirelli tire Plaid as well, yet not one reported tread failure or air loss yet, AFAIK . . . which should speak volumes as to a likely 21" Michelin Pilot Sport 4S manufacturing or design defect input into all these issues.
Which would suggest a tire recall is overdue, before someone gets hurt. The defect manifests in an almost impossible to see tire failure, but for many here we at least have the early and ongoing pressure loss, pre-tread separation, which remains fully unexplained. I would guess it's from microscopic tears in the tire carcass as the tire comes apart internally first, at least in some cases. Even with Nitrogen fill (thanks Costco!), we still have 2 to 3 psi loss per week, and now growing, despite the larger molecules of N2 (which leak out more slowly).
All just FYI but I hope it's informative.
Can't wait to get the new rear tires on as spouse doesn't even like to ride or drive the 21" car any more due to fear of impending tire catastrophe.
If Michelin (which apparently employs some posters here) wishes to blame Tesla for all this, fine. Then stop selling the 21" Pilot Sports 4S's to Tesla . . . but until then, they're complicit in this and what will, eventually, happen.
emailforbrett
Member
If my alignment was off, such as the camber, wouldn’t the inner tread or sidewall show excessive wear? As you can see in the pics, there is no excessive wear. The tread simply separated from the sidewall. As you can also see by the treadwear at 15,000 miles, I don’t drive this car hard at all. I have only floored it twice. I drive it like an old lady.
Awiner
Member
Yes camber being off would show across the tread. Toe being off shows where these sidewalls are starting to separate. Excessive toe out will point the wheel towards the outside of the vehicle, therefore scrubbing the inner shoulder area we are seeing wear / failure in. It only takes a little negative toe to start overheating that area.
Hayseed_MS
Spreader of "Endless Non Sequitur"
I have toe of 0.19/0.19 - is that good?
I drive it like a touring sedan. Spirited but not hard.
Awiner
Member
If that was measured in the height setting you most commonly drive in that +0.19 toe is a good area to be in. I try to keep mine +0.15 is the LOW height setting as that is where the majority of my driving is set at.
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Hayseed_MS
Spreader of "Endless Non Sequitur"
There is certainly excessive wear on the inner treads.
Look at the distance from the top of the tread blocks to the top of the wear indicators. The outer blocks have the most tread, and the inner blocks have the least.
Also, the blocks at the inner sidewall are completely worn to the threads.
Compare that to the tread blocks from the outer sidewall where none of them are worn down.
Does the problem only happen in cold temperatures? If anything, people need to make sure tire pressure doesn't get below 42.
n2mb_racing
Active Member
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