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Plaid+ CANCELLED

cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
More of it.


Sure it is. There is no need for high mileage cars in an urban environment. You don’t need your own personal parking spot with charging. You want one. Because you are greedy and somewhat lazy, like most humans.

Charge at the station like the rest of us mouth breathers and be happy about it. Ice drivers don’t complain because they have to drive five minutes to the gas station yet you demand to be allowed to charge at home. Ridiculous.
Ice drivers don't have to take an hour out of their day to fill up their tank.
 

IdahoRenegade

Member
Apr 5, 2021
14
-2
83860
Yeah... ok... I’m with you so far...



ok... so an edge case then... EVs don’t need to meet all edge cases right now... Demand exceeds supply, currently.



yes, I agree with you. Wait a few more years till there are much more EVs on the road. Then businesses will be incentivized to build ev charging stations along more routes and your first problem and second problem will be solved with out dumping a lot of resources into one large battery.

I said all this before. You must not have read it.
My apologies if I missed it. My point was, until that happens, EVs with a longer range bridged that gap or "dead zone" between charging infrastructure.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,613
7,941
Seattle area, WA
I’m with you as my plaid+ is still showing. Tesla can’t make me switch anything unless I want to.
Oh but they can give you the option to get your deposit back, or roll over to a Plaid. I heard from a one person who ordered plaid+ they already got the call, offering to deliver Plaid within a month, or a refund. Even new Plaid orders show delivery in June, so the order backlog must not be that great.

EDIT: Plaid+ has been scrubbed from the website too, for those who were holding out hope because it was still there greyed out (my theory is that it was only there because they had outstanding deposits, they now found a way to not keep it there).
 

X Fan

Supporting Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,411
6,121
Naples, FL & Cary, NC
I beg to differ the advertised range of 400 is with a 100% charge, going to 0! Real life scenario, you charge to 90% and drive to 20%. With lacking infrastructure, 20% on the low side is conservative. So essentially you have a net 70% (theoretical of course) of 400, or 280... In real life, you get about 70% of displayed range, or about 200 actual miles. That's about 1/2 the rated range. Just saying (2017 S P100D)
FWIW: on road trips we base charge to 100 and then first stop is 10.

Subsequent legs are charged less and dependent on distance Etc. Bigger battery/stated distance is important for travelers as it reduces travel time. My recent trip from FL-NC took 45 minutes more due to SC congestion/V2 chargers.
 
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lowtek

Member
Jan 2, 2020
561
1,125
Alabama, USA
Ice drivers don't have to take an hour out of their day to fill up their tank.

They also can't fuel up while they sleep and leave from home every day full. I'm not necessarily an EV junkie but for day to day they can be more convenient than ICE. The only time we use superchargers is when traveling and you fill up much faster than an hour in most cases 20-30 mins.
 

DukeofURL

Member
Apr 1, 2016
682
1,350
North NJ
We seem to be focusing on the longer range provided by the new batteries of the + (which, to be fair, is what Tesla told us is the primary difference when they called us and tried to get us to switch to Plaid). What about the other features that were announced for the + on Battery Day?
> Structural battery
> Rear megacasting
> Further centered battery for lesser moment of inertia
> Whichever changes they have made to get the Nurburgring & Laguna Seca times (of which we've seen at least an active spoiler)

All of these will improve handling, which, honestly was what I was most interested in. My 100D is already quick -not fast-, but for instance it's faster than my cousin's M3 of the same year (an actual M3, by BMW, not a Model 3 haha), which is a well-respected sports car. He hates my Model S because it feels ungainly in corners. I thought with the Plaid+ Tesla was finally moving away from cars that can reign supreme at traffic light but not much else, with their new focus on track tuning.

I wonder how much of these + items will find their way into the Plaid and how many will be given up for Porsche to take the crown.
 
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2101Guy

Active Member
Jan 6, 2020
1,711
1,657
USA
But gosh, why did it take 10 years for any real competition?
because it goes directly against traditional franchise/dealership ICE car business model in some ways. Ex: Most of a dealerships profits arent from new car sales, its from maintenance and post-warranty repair work. Aging ice cars have so many things to repair, maintain, etc. Boom to the service dept bottom line. And those BMW/Benz Schedule A/Schdule B, etc regular maintnance visits? $$$. Thats if they find NOTHING additional to bill you for. It's a beautiful business model for them.

Now you toss in electric. Faster than AMG and //M and anything else. Far far fewer moving parts. HArdly anything at all to maintain. Thats a nightmare for car dealerships. Plus big oil companies have close partnerhips with ICE car makers. ("We recommend MObil 1 Oil only in your AMG") So as a dealer, you fight against it as long as you can.
 
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cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
Ev drivers don’t need to do that either?
If you can't charge at home and only have barely enough range to run your weekend errands, then you better believe you start charging at 15 miles of range and fill it up all the way to 90% or more at the one supercharger in the downtown area, which is only 72kw.
For someone who clearly doesn't understand the implications of living with a Tesla in an urban area, you sure have a strong opinion about what we need from an EV right now.
 

T100d-

Member
Jan 2, 2021
20
6
06611
As far as handling is concerned, cars with low center of gravity and similar track dimension and tires, will have better steady state handling for sure (barring airfoils), but a heavy car with a high polar moment of inertia about the vertical axis, will be challenged with transient handling like an autocross.
 

cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
Heres a list for you. Notice Tesla NEVER meets the EPA but other EV's do.
Wow, the Taycan 4S has more range than the P100D?
Oh but they can give you the option to get your deposit back, or roll over to a Plaid. I heard from a one person who ordered plaid+ they already got the call, offering to deliver Plaid within a month, or a refund. Even new Plaid orders show delivery in June, so the order backlog must not be that great.

EDIT: Plaid+ has been scrubbed from the website too, for those who were holding out hope because it was still there greyed out (my theory is that it was only there because they had outstanding deposits, they now found a way to not keep it there).
New plaid orders are delivered in August. Are you sure your friend has the option of jumping the line?
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,143
2,162
VB
If you can't charge at home and only have barely enough range to run your weekend errands, then you better believe you start charging at 15 miles of range and fill it up all the way to 90% or more at the one supercharger in the downtown area, which is only 72kw.
For someone who clearly doesn't understand the implications of living with a Tesla in an urban area, you sure have a strong opinion about what we need from an EV right now.

your car is parked for most of the day at work. Could charge there. I disagree that you need to spend an hour each to charging. 15-20 minutes tops. While you are at the grocery store.. or restaurant, ect.

We will need fast dc charging like we need gas stations. One in every city isn’t enough. Two isn’t enough either. 100 isn’t enough.

larger batteries won’t solve that at all. But smaller batteries will increase your throughput at fast dc charging stations.
 
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Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,266
1,789
The Woodlands, TX
Again, don't blame Tesla, blame the EPA. Tesla does not come up with the EPA number. It's the EPA that tests the car and determines the estimate.
You may say that EPA's estimate is not as realistic as Edmund's, but that is a very different from saying that Tesla doesn't meet its EPA estimate.

The EPA does not test the cars. The numbers are self-reported. EPA only tests if they smell a rat. This is true throughout the automotive sector, not just Tesla.

The EPA publishes the test criteria and then the manufacturers test and self-report.

Having said that, I THINK your overall point is that the EPA's testing methodology is not a good representation of "real world" conditions for EV's. For that, I 100% agree. Keep in mind that the tests are done indoors on a dyno, and then correction factors are applied for weather. I think that Tesla's drivetrains are SO efficient that their aero load is just that much more of a loss percentage than any other EV maker. And so the correction for aero isn't as "real world" for Tesla as it is for other manufacturers.
 
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DukeofURL

Member
Apr 1, 2016
682
1,350
North NJ
New plaid orders are delivered in August. Are you sure your friend has the option of jumping the line?
I've heard of others on this forum switching their + to a Plaid order on Monday and getting an invitation to take delivery at the event tomorrow, so I don't doubt it. I'd be highly tempted by such an option myself, haha.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,266
1,789
The Woodlands, TX
So some of the manufacturers are manipulating their vehicle's performance to meet the EPA test standards, while not doing so in the real world? Seems like VW got caught doing something similar not so long ago.

The EPA test is standardized and VERY specific. It's run indoors on a dyno, and then that result is plugged into a formula, essentially, and corrected to make a "real world" number to account for weather.

When I say very specific, I mean extremely specific. As in, start at zero MPH, accelerate to 34 MPH in 8 seconds hold that speed for 14 seconds, then accelerate to 50 MPH in 6 seconds, hold that speed for 47 seconds, etc. I used to have the speed / acceleration / time chart but I can't find them now so I'm totally making those numbers up, but you get the idea. Not only is it specific as to speed vs. time, it's specific to acceleration vs. time.

Manufacturers have tried to game this test forever. They employ specialized drivers that are experts in absolutely nailing the speed / acceleration / time chart to the second. IN the end, it's a standardized test that has nothing to do with how people actually drive, so as they say, Your Mileage May Vary. But it's all they can really do, short of running each car on a road in a closed environment.

VW's scandal was on emissions for their diesel engines. They programmed the computer to recognize the sequence of acceleration / time present for the EPA test, and it switched into a low emissions mode which gave lower real-world performance. Since performance is not measured during the test, it really goes unnoticed. When the ECU did not detect that it was performing an emissions test, it defaulted back to a higher-polluting, but better performing, mode.

I have to say, I own one of the VW diesel engines. And while I was always a little suspicious at how long it took between refills of DEF, the engine always ran pretty clean. There was never any smoke on acceleration, never any soot whatsoever inside the tailpipe, no stink, no smell, no coal rolling. The engine has been remapped to meet regulations, which nerfed performance, and then re-mapped again subsequently which brought it about 90% of the way back. And I cannot detect any difference in fuel economy (I have tracked since new) nor in visible soot / emissions. It's as clean as it ever has been. I don't even clean the tailpipe, it's always been super clean.

Anyway, sorry about the anecdote.
 

cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
your car is parked for most of the day at work. Could charge there. I disagree that you need to spend an hour each to charging. 15-20 minutes tops. While you are at the grocery store.. or restaurant, ect.

We will need fast dc charging like we need gas stations. One in every city isn’t enough. Two isn’t enough either. 100 isn’t enough.

larger batteries won’t solve that at all. But smaller batteries will increase your throughput at fast dc charging stations.
My car is not parked at work most of the day.

I agree that having dozems of charging stations at common destinations will solve the problem. We don't have that right now, which is why long range EVs make such a difference for those that can't charge at home.
It's bizarre to say that 500 mile range isn't needed at the same time you're saying that the infrastructure to make it uneeded doesn't exist yet.

Should we build out more infrastructure so we can have less expensive EVs with only 50 miles of range, because there are chargers in every parking spot? Hell yah!
Until then, should we build exclusive, expensive models with more range that help drive EV adoption in city centers? Hell yah!

Having a halo car with chart topping range that costs way more than average people can afford isn't going to dissuade businesses from installing chargers that meet the needs of those with lower range.
 

TexasTezla

Member
Feb 28, 2020
127
90
Texas
The extra range doesn’t incentivize infrastructure build out, that was my point. There may come a time when it is important to meet the limited cases where 500 Mile range is useful, that time isn’t now, and you presented no evidence that it is needed now
Then your point was nonsense. Extra range incentivizes people to move from ICE to EV as an EV then requires charging around the same amount of times as an ICE needs fuel. I think you can see from these comments that you are on your own when it comes to not wanting more range!
 
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