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Plaid+ CANCELLED

greenmore

Member
Apr 21, 2021
48
96
Maryland
The EPA does not test the cars. The numbers are self-reported. EPA only tests if they smell a rat. This is true throughout the automotive sector, not just Tesla.

The EPA publishes the test criteria and then the manufacturers test and self-report.

Having said that, I THINK your overall point is that the EPA's testing methodology is not a good representation of "real world" conditions for EV's. For that, I 100% agree. Keep in mind that the tests are done indoors on a dyno, and then correction factors are applied for weather. I think that Tesla's drivetrains are SO efficient that their aero load is just that much more of a loss percentage than any other EV maker. And so the correction for aero isn't as "real world" for Tesla as it is for other manufacturers.
I can just repeat myself. It's EPA's rating and you can't blame Tesla for it, unless they cheat like VW did, which no one alleged yet.
It's a completely different question whether the EPA test matches someone's real-world driving pattern/style.
All ICE cars are also marketed based on EPA ratings and those are also often way off so there's nothing new here.

I used to own a Prius that had an advertised 50 mpg fuel economy, pretty much the same in city and highway.
I only hit 50 with it in the most ideal conditions. In the winter with lots of highway driving it was around 40. Even lower if I just used it for short trips in the winter in the city.

My Model S LRP usually has about 15% less range than advertised nowadays with 90F+ outside temperatures (AC going on high), lots of fast highway driving and often getting stuck in traffic jams. I'm totally fine with it.
 
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TessP100D

Member
Jan 15, 2018
241
151
La Quinta, Ca
You are looking at it short term. They don’t need to tie into your panel to meter it. ChargePoint has chargers that can bill you directly. If only your landlord was incentivized to have the chargers installed. If EVs are going to replace gas cars, more range isn’t the answer. More infrastructure is.
We need both now.

in the future when charging stations replace gas stations on every corner and the charging speeds increase dramatically then and only the will range become less important. But now in 2021, we need more range.
 
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Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,266
1,789
The Woodlands, TX
I can just repeat myself. It's EPA's rating and you can't blame Tesla for it, unless they cheat like VW did, which no one alleged yet.
It's a completely different question whether the EPA test matches someone's real-world driving pattern/style.

Actually it points out an inherent flaw in the EPA test. So it's not a completely different question.

I get what you're saying. Tesla is given the same test as everyone else. They cannot be asked to test to something different. The delta between EPA results and real world results is not their fault. It's a quirk of the test.

At the same time, knowing what the test parameters are, you CAN chose to be more conservative with the testing, since there are also different methodologies and correction factors that the automakers can choose from to do the test. Tesla choses not to take the conservative approach, they choose to take the most push-the-envelope approach which yields bigger headline figures. Others choose not to. And that IS a choice Tesla has made.
 
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greenmore

Member
Apr 21, 2021
48
96
Maryland
Actually it points out an inherent flaw in the EPA test. So it's not a completely different question.

I get what you're saying. Tesla is given the same test as everyone else. They cannot be asked to test to something different. The delta between EPA results and real world results is not their fault. It's a quirk of the test.

At the same time, knowing what the test parameters are, you CAN chose to be more conservative with the testing, since there are also different methodologies and correction factors that the automakers can choose from to do the test. Tesla choses not to take the conservative approach, they choose to take the most push-the-envelope approach which yields bigger headline figures. Others choose not to. And that IS a choice Tesla has made.
You are suggesting that Ford and other makers deliberately reduce their EPA estimates so that it will match up better with people's real world experience. There's almost zero chance a profit driven corporation would do that. I'm sure Porsche would kill to get a better EPA estimate, but the peculiarities of the test lower their results.

What is more likely is that the EPA estimates are too specific and can vary too much between cars that otherwise have very similar real world range.
I.e. the top 5 cars in the Edmunds test are within 10% of each other in terms of driving range, but their EPA estimates are wildly different.
 

Brando

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
2,916
2,035
Bainbridge Island, WA
Which car matches or exceeds 2020 Model S in range or charge speed?
i.e. Which vehicles should we comparison shop?

Same question for Model X.

thank you for serious suggestions [which vehicles did you consider / buy / compare]

Your experience & comparisons can help others narrow their search & save time.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,613
7,941
Seattle area, WA
Wow, the Taycan 4S has more range than the P100D?

New plaid orders are delivered in August. Are you sure your friend has the option of jumping the line?
It depends where you live. I'm in WA state, if I was to order right now (no existing deposit in place, not logged in so no special for existing customers) Tesla says June:
1623253619461.png
 
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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,613
7,941
Seattle area, WA
We seem to be focusing on the longer range provided by the new batteries of the + (which, to be fair, is what Tesla told us is the primary difference when they called us and tried to get us to switch to Plaid). What about the other features that were announced for the + on Battery Day?
> Structural battery
> Rear megacasting
> Further centered battery for lesser moment of inertia
> Whichever changes they have made to get the Nurburgring & Laguna Seca times (of which we've seen at least an active spoiler)

All of these will improve handling, which, honestly was what I was most interested in. My 100D is already quick -not fast-, but for instance it's faster than my cousin's M3 of the same year (an actual M3, by BMW, not a Model 3 haha), which is a well-respected sports car. He hates my Model S because it feels ungainly in corners. I thought with the Plaid+ Tesla was finally moving away from cars that can reign supreme at traffic light but not much else, with their new focus on track tuning.

I wonder how much of these + items will find their way into the Plaid and how many will be given up for Porsche to take the crown.
Well, like most Elon, some those features will actually come in a few years, just in a much less impressive form than the hype from Battery Day.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,498
5,449
Actually it points out an inherent flaw in the EPA test. So it's not a completely different question.

I get what you're saying. Tesla is given the same test as everyone else. They cannot be asked to test to something different. The delta between EPA results and real world results is not their fault. It's a quirk of the test.

At the same time, knowing what the test parameters are, you CAN chose to be more conservative with the testing, since there are also different methodologies and correction factors that the automakers can choose from to do the test. Tesla choses not to take the conservative approach, they choose to take the most push-the-envelope approach which yields bigger headline figures. Others choose not to. And that IS a choice Tesla has made.
Actually Tesla had voluntarily lowered their range numbers in the past (well documented) so it's not true they take the most "push the envelope" approach. For example Tesla getting 334 miles in testing for Model 3 LR, but choosing 310.

The main difference is Tesla does the 5-cycle test (which ICE cars have long switched to) while others still mainly stick to the 2-cycle with the 70% adjustment factor. The 5-cycle test actually is supposed to reflect the EPA cycle more accurately and that 2-cycle is just a legacy test method that only EVs still get to use.

The problem is people continually like to compare the rating to much higher steady state highway speeds (and compare to EPA combined no less, not even the highway figure, which is trival to calculate) and then suggest that Tesla is somehow "cheating" when the test method doesn't even reflect the EPA cycle at all. Of course such people never mention Tesla had gone through EPA confirmatory testing many times and EPA has never suggested Tesla's numbers were inaccurate.

As for Porsche, they even published a non-standard AMCI test (275 miles vs 201 EPA):
I'm pretty sure if they could make the Taycan go 275 miles EPA they would love to put that figure instead of making up some test.
 

Mark2018s

Member
Mar 22, 2021
60
35
New York
Has anyone considered that there will be a Plaid+ despite that tweet? Elon is not that predictable.

JK we will have Plaid+ by Sept!! Stock price rebounds...people who sold on the tweet are pissed off!!
 
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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,613
7,941
Seattle area, WA
I can just repeat myself. It's EPA's rating and you can't blame Tesla for it, unless they cheat like VW did, which no one alleged yet.
Well, obviously Tesla is doing something different than the rest of the guys, if the cars driven in the same manner from Tesla can't hit EPA rating and the rest of the manufacturers exceed it. Maybe they are special miles, like Tesla horsepower. Elon and JB told us long time ago how 463 actual hp (as defined by measurement standards) is worth 691hp in a Tesla, so they were absolutely not cheating when they advertised it as such. It took a lawsuit in Europe to get them to admit they lied, but even then they came up with an excuse - "we said motor power, we never said the motors can come even close to producing that much power in a Tesla we sold it in, but if you were to put it in another car, you could hit it".
 
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qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,143
2,164
VB
Then your point was nonsense. Extra range incentivizes people to move from ICE to EV as an EV then requires charging around the same amount of times as an ICE needs fuel. I think you can see from these comments that you are on your own when it comes to not wanting more range!

Do you think there would be more ev adoption with an ev priced at 25K with a rated range Of 200 miles or with a an ev priced at 125K with a range of 500 miles?
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,498
5,449
Well, obviously Tesla is doing something different than the rest of the guys, if the cars driven in the same manner from Tesla can't hit EPA rating and the rest of the manufacturers exceed it.
Even putting aside "real world" tests are testing something completely different than the EPA cycle (especially the combined cycle that people compare to), it has not been demonstrated that Tesla is the sole outlier. For example, you can look at Inside EV's 70mph testing, Tesla's certainly not the only one that gets below EPA:
EV Range Tests: Real-World Vs EPA
Tesla had also gone through EPA confirmatory testing, and EPA did not find problems with Tesla's numbers.
Maybe they are special miles, like Tesla horsepower. Elon and JB told us long time ago how 463 actual hp (as defined by measurement standards) is worth 691hp in a Tesla, so they were absolutely not cheating when they advertised it as such. It took a lawsuit in Europe to get them to admit they lied, but even then they came up with an excuse - "we said motor power, we never said the motors can come even close to producing that much power in a Tesla we sold it in, but if you were to put it in another car, you could hit it".
There's an in depth discussion here in the past, but your take is quite wrong.
The actual EU test standard (which forms the basis of the numbers that are on the EU certificate) is done using ECE R85, where the motor tests are done on a test bench and power supply (that can't drop more than 5% during the test).
[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
Tesla did settle a lawsuit on this matter in Norway (which isn't in the EU, although they are part of Europe, and they tend to have the most consumer friendly courts), but they didn't lose or settle lawsuits related to this elsewhere, nor were they required to change any of their certificate numbers. Tesla had to settle on in Norway the basis of it being misleading to customers, but not on the test standards supposedly giving 463 hp. You can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and if you have evidence of the certificates being deemed incorrect.
Tesla Settles with Angry P85D Owners in EV-Friendly Norway over Horsepower Ratings
Additional plaintiffs were added to original case in 2018, but no change in the overall effects:
Tesla receives another Model S P85D lawsuit in Norway

In terms of horsepower advertisement, there is not set standard that is required (unlike EPA figures) so anything goes really. I remember back then I looked it up in 2015 and 2016 Ram was still using SAE gross figures for their diesel trucks. This allows them to use a different intake, exhaust, fuel injection, ignition timing settings, and no engine driven accessories (even ones necessary for operation of the engine like oil, water pumps, and alternators), which gives a figure that can't necessarily be achieved in a stock vehicle, but is completely legal to use in advertising.
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L
 
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cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
Do you think there would be more ev adoption with an ev priced at 25K with a rated range Of 200 miles or with a an ev priced at 125K with a range of 500 miles?
Why are you so convinced we can't have both? You realize there are cars that cost $15k and also $1.5M, right?

$25k EVs with 100 miles of range will drive broad adoption of charging stations. $160k luxury cars with more performance and longer range will drive EV adoption among those who don't want to compromise anything vs. an ICE car.
 

cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
It depends where you live. I'm in WA state, if I was to order right now (no existing deposit in place, not logged in so no special for existing customers) Tesla says June:
I just realized it depends on the build. If you choose white leather or carbon fiber, the delivery moves to august.
 
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cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
Which car matches or exceeds 2020 Model S in range or charge speed?
i.e. Which vehicles should we comparison shop?

Same question for Model X.

thank you for serious suggestions [which vehicles did you consider / buy / compare]

Your experience & comparisons can help others narrow their search & save time.
Not available yet, obviously, but the Lucid Air is projected to beat the Model S/X in both range and charge speed. Projected to be available in the fall of this year.
 

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