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Plan: Off grid solar with a Model S battery pack at the heart

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Well, since I'd be designing the system from scratch, obviously I would set it up in such a way that I don't over-charge or over-discharge the batteries.

It would be awesome to interface with the existing BMS somehow, but, I'm doubting that it will be easy.
So basically you're saying that you're building your own BMS. you'll have to account for minimum and maximum charge levels, I'm assuming you'll do that based on the voltage of the pack?

You'd likely forgo any cell level balancing though?

I've heard bad things from people working with LiIon bateries without good BMS, (prematurely killing the packs) so I'm curious what you're going to do in this regard.
 
So basically you're saying that you're building your own BMS. you'll have to account for minimum and maximum charge levels, I'm assuming you'll do that based on the voltage of the pack?

You'd likely forgo any cell level balancing though?

I've heard bad things from people working with LiIon bateries without good BMS, (prematurely killing the packs) so I'm curious what you're going to do in this regard.

Didn't say I've be designing the individual *components* from scratch... as I said, I want to try to utilize the existing BMS if I can figure out how.

As for cell level balancing, I don't even know what Tesla does in this regard as of yet. The battery is just charged at high voltage from what I can tell, as one unit.
 
I need to find the part number for this part, which would appear to be the actual high voltage connector to the battery... hopefully Tesla would sell me one:


needthis.jpg



Anyone have any ideas? (Image from another thread)
 
Actually the system wouldn't be in NJ, it would be in NC.

But the drive for off grid is that to me, the concept of net metering is more politics than anything. At any moment something with that arrangement could change and I could end up with a bill for grid use instead of using the grid as a battery, per se. Best to just use my own battery and let the grid be the grid.

I'd still have some power from the grid, but in the end I'd want it for just backup.
You're going to need a very large solar system and battery if you want to match the reliability of the grid. I've been meaning to do some multi-year time series simulations to see just how much more it would cost to go off grid. My gut tells me a lot.

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You're house will be in NC you say? I actually have the data to run that study.
 
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You're going to need a very large solar system and battery if you want to match the reliability of the grid.

I don't see how, really. Once the setup is complete and in place there is very little that should go wrong provided that power usage is kept within the confines of what is available.

Why would you think that an off-grid system wouldn't be as reliable?
 
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I need to find the part number for this part, which would appear to be the actual high voltage connector to the battery... hopefully Tesla would sell me one:

Anyone have any ideas? (Image from another thread)
Not sure that it's actually required. depends how the pack end is done, but it's just 2 (really big) wires. you can make your own connections, it's not like the pack needs to be able to be put back in to a vehicle afterwards.

Is that the only wiring going in to the battery? if so, that's actually good news. if there are only 2 fat wires connecting to the pack, that means that the pack itself has all the cell level stuff built right in, and you don't need to worry about it. You still ahve to manage charge levels, but that's simpler than worrying about anything else (it also means that there are no weird proprietary signals that you have to emulate on other wires to convince the battery to charge or discharge)
 
Not sure that it's actually required. depends how the pack end is done, but it's just 2 (really big) wires. you can make your own connections, it's not like the pack needs to be able to be put back in to a vehicle afterwards.

Is that the only wiring going in to the battery? if so, that's actually good news. if there are only 2 fat wires connecting to the pack, that means that the pack itself has all the cell level stuff built right in, and you don't need to worry about it. You still ahve to manage charge levels, but that's simpler than worrying about anything else (it also means that there are no weird proprietary signals that you have to emulate on other wires to convince the battery to charge or discharge)

There is another connector near that one, but I have not been able to find pics of the male end yet. Here is the female port:

batterydata.jpg


There are also quick disconnects for the coolant loop on the other side of the pack. When I actually physically get one to tinker with I'll make the determination on how to utilize it. Ideally I'd love to keep it 100% intact and unmodified, but that's probably not practical.
 
For true off grid battery system, instead of just battery back up system, I would go with nickel-iron batteries over lithium-ion. Nickel-iron last practically forever, with daily near full range charge/discharge cycles.

Check out Nickel-Iron NiFe batteries by Iron Edison

Isn't the round trip efficiency much lower than lithium, plus high self discharge over time?
 
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Isn't the round trip efficiency much lower than lithium, plus high self discharge over time?
The self discharge time (20-30% per month) is not really an issue a daily solar charge/discharge set up.

The main benifit is they have a really high cycle count, so they are very good for off grid setups, as opposed to grid tied whole house back ups, which are rarely cycle at all.
 
The self discharge time (20-30% per month) is not really an issue a daily solar charge/discharge set up.

The main benifit is they have a really high cycle count, so they are very good for off grid setups, as opposed to grid tied whole house back ups, which are rarely cycle at all.

I think the main issue is cost... running a Model S battery in say the 20% to 80% SoC range at ~C/4 charge/discharge I think the cells would last quite a while.
 
I need to find the part number for this part, which would appear to be the actual high voltage connector to the battery... hopefully Tesla would sell me one:

Anyone have any ideas? (Image from another thread)

Unfortunately, Otmar (who has been working on transplanting the guts of a Tesla in to a stretched VW van!) was recently shutdown by his local Tesla service center when trying to order parts. He had successfully gotten some previously, but no more.

So, I don't know if all service centers have been given similar instructions, but even if you do get a part number you may not get them to sell you one. I find that unfortunate.

You might be able to get one from a salvage...
 
I don't see how, really. Once the setup is complete and in place there is very little that should go wrong provided that power usage is kept within the confines of what is available.

Why would you think that an off-grid system wouldn't be as reliable?

Imagine that your house uses 24 kWh a day. If you have 12 hours of sunlight and it's always sunny during those 12 hours you'd need a 2 kW solar system and a 12 kWh battery. Realistically with losses and storage and the fact that you aren't at peak production you'll need at least a 4 kW solar system and a 15 kWh battery. What happens if it's a cloudy day. Best case scenario is that you can produce 50% so you'll only get 12 kWh that day. If you want to be able to continue to live as normal, you'd need to have another 12 kWh stored in your battery or produced by your solar. So you'd need a say 5 kW solar and a 20 kWh battery. What if you get two cloudy days in a row. You'll need to increase the size of your panel and battery system again to make sure you have enough energy. Considering that some cloudy days may cause the solar to only produce 20% of their rated capacity, you'd really need to oversize, especially if you want to last through overcasts lasting three days or more. If you can't do things because you don't have energy to do them, your reliability is lower.
 
Interesting numbers, but if we're talking an MS pack he's already talking 60 or 85 kWh battery (well abouve the 12-20 you mention). and solar panels are relatively cheap these days.

In an ideal world it would make no sense at all to do this project as grid storage would win out on cost and reliability every time... but depending on where you live, if you actually look at your utility bill you'll find that the cost premium charged for grid storage is ridiculously high. Additionally ask anyone who lives in eastern Canada or the NE of the USA about how reliable the power provided for that cost is... the extremely long transmission lines from northern quebec extending all the way in to the US and covering large amounts of the east coast lead to more blackouts than you'd think reasonable, many lasting days or weeks.

In an ideal world this would be a ridiculous project. But we don't live in an ideal world, we live in the real world, and I'm watching this project with great interest.
 
Let's say I get a 20kW (DC) solar setup up and running. Let's also say that I'm able to directly charge the 85kWh battery with this DC power with some decent amount of efficiency. We'll say 85% charging efficiency for now, which I think is very low and safe guestimate.

20 * 0.85 = 17kW usable DC power. Where I plan to setup this system, calculations come out to an average of 5.3 hours per day of peak output. Bit higher in the summer, bit lower in the winter.

So, 17*5.3=90.1 kWh. 90.1kWh. Let's jump down to the winter number, say, 3.5 hours/day (about 1/3rd loss). Still 59.5 kWh/day. That's almost 1800 kWh generated per month in the winter and around 3000 kWh in the summer (when, coincidentally, it will be needed more). In the winter I don't think my personal use will spike much over 2000kWh at the most, so, this is fine. In the summer a good chunk of daytime output will likely go to climate management. If it looks like power would ever be wasted (full pack) I'd probably have the system setup to dump power into the A/C and bring the home temp down a notch or two to make night time usage of the battery a little less.

59.5 kWh/day comes out to an average constant load of just under 2.5kW. Even using only 80% of the SoC range on an 85kWh pack, it would take about 27 hours to run out of power with zero power input, starting with a full charge. I doubt that the array will ever generate zero power in a 27 hour period. Even 20% of expected in the winter is 11.9 kWh which would be almost an additional 5 hours of run time for 32 hours total. At that rate let's say we're full near sundown on day 1. By sundown on day 2 we've consumed 48.1 kWh net, or 70% of the available power. That leaves another 8-ish hours before the pack would be below the cut off point. Say, 6PM to 2AM remaining.

At that point, when the battery hit the cut off point, my idea would be to have a ~20kW AC-DC grid charger kick in to bring the pack back up a bit. Preferably this setup would be smart enough to estimate the amount of time left without sun input and other factors to make sure to not miss out on any solar generated power from the pack being full already. Basically, I'd keep a grid interconnect for just this purpose.

In the summer this whole potential problem is moot since there would normally be enough power generated during the day to more than fill the entire pack by sun down, even accounting for some poor weather days. Winter will be the biggest hurdle, and I plan on actually doing some more detailed analysis of the energy needed during that timeframe and the array size needed to maintain it.

Honestly, I may utilize two 85kWh packs in parallel (or similarly suitable configuration) if needed. I doubt my power needs are quite that high though. Likely less expensive to just make the home more efficient overall.

I'd probably keep a grid connection also with a transfer switch setup to move my HPWC from off-grid to on-grid when absolutely needed, which probably won't be often.

Overall I plan on building up a reasonably complex setup. It will surely take some time, some trial and error, but, I'll get there. :)

One plan I've been throwing around is to actually start the build out of the system, building everything *except* the solar array, and using grid-tied charging to essentially simulate solar power. That way I can run the system for a bit under different test conditions and determine the exact needs for the array. If it turns out to be too ridiculous (I don't think it will be) then I at least have a pretty awesome backup setup or something that could be used for ToU arbitrage or something else useful later if desired.

I'm in the process of obtaining an 85kWh pack from a salvage now, also.
 
You've checked with your local regulations and codes for this correct? I'd hate for you to get >$30k into your plan only to find out you can't get the required permits to do the job. Also keep in mind that utilities are very specific on how and what you have connected to the grid so you may want to make sure you are even allowed to connect your proposed system to the grid at all since that seems to be one of your plans here.
 
You've checked with your local regulations and codes for this correct? I'd hate for you to get >$30k into your plan only to find out you can't get the required permits to do the job. Also keep in mind that utilities are very specific on how and what you have connected to the grid so you may want to make sure you are even allowed to connect your proposed system to the grid at all since that seems to be one of your plans here.

The unofficial word I've gotten from the town I plan on doing this in is that they pretty much don't care what I do as long as the inside house wiring is to code, very little of which I plan on changing. The solar setup itself is not going to be grid interconnected, so, the utility has no say over it. The charger that I plan on having grid powered is just another appliance that uses power. Essentially will be the same as charging a Model S.

Overall the impression I get from the local electrical inspector and such is that very little will need to be permitted.

I'll see how this goes as I get further down the line.
 
The key issue for utilities is whether you are going to be generating power, or extracting power from the battery, at the same time you're grid connected. Most utilities require that you "break then make" if for no other reason than the safety of linemen who expect that power is flowing in a particular direction on the distribution lines.
 
The key issue for utilities is whether you are going to be generating power, or extracting power from the battery, at the same time you're grid connected. Most utilities require that you "break then make" if for no other reason than the safety of linemen who expect that power is flowing in a particular direction on the distribution lines.

With my setup there is never going to be a connection that feeds the grid any power in any way shape or form.

At most the off grid setup will have a fully isolated AC->DC charging unit that can run off of the grid when needed. But this will never work in reverse.