Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Plan: Off grid solar with a Model S battery pack at the heart

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
The killer in any business is labor costs. Tearing apart an old pack is very labor intensive, to the point where the most economical use of an old pack may very well be what Tesla is planning on doing with them. Which is stuff them into an automated mill that crushes them and separates out the useful metals and recycles the metals into new batteries.

I expect at the very least they will use robots to systematically dismantle the packs and feed the cells into a machine than "unrolls" them. No need to grind up all the enclosure (steel and plastic) plus interconnects and coolant lines (copper) along with the cells.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lklundin
Not referring to my setup, since I'm still setting up for off-grid use. Grid is my backup generator. As of right now I have no intention of feeding power back into the grid at all. That may change if I have a substantial overproduction in the summer months. However, as of right now I see no reason to do so, nor do I see any reason to pull power from the grid on a regular basis.

One reason of course for sending excess solar back to the grid is environmental - you're stopping the grid burning fossil fuels.
Also - don't your grid pay you for exporting electricity?
In the UK we had something called a FIT (Feed-in-Tarriff) to incentivise the consumer to go electric (or wind / hydro) back in the late 2000's the UK gov created a system that would pay out 40p/kWH ($60c) guaranteed, rising with inflation for 25 years for EVERYTHING you generate whether you use 1% or 100% of it as long it was wired to feed into the grid - basically you don't even need an export meter - just a generation meter and a certified install. The scheme was ridiculously popular even with a then 4kw system costing £15-20k. It's been cut since (rightly so as solar got cheaper) and was slashed last year from 13p to about 4p. This doesn't include an additional export rate of about 5p/kWH measured off an export meter OR assuming half what you generate.
Note in the UK (which gets less sun thank the US) a 4kw system costs about £5k installed, and generates about 3500kW in a year.
 
One reason of course for sending excess solar back to the grid is environmental - you're stopping the grid burning fossil fuels.
Also - don't your grid pay you for exporting electricity?
In the UK we had something called a FIT (Feed-in-Tarriff) to incentivise the consumer to go electric (or wind / hydro) back in the late 2000's the UK gov created a system that would pay out 40p/kWH ($60c) guaranteed, rising with inflation for 25 years for EVERYTHING you generate whether you use 1% or 100% of it as long it was wired to feed into the grid - basically you don't even need an export meter - just a generation meter and a certified install. The scheme was ridiculously popular even with a then 4kw system costing £15-20k. It's been cut since (rightly so as solar got cheaper) and was slashed last year from 13p to about 4p. This doesn't include an additional export rate of about 5p/kWH measured off an export meter OR assuming half what you generate.
Note in the UK (which gets less sun thank the US) a 4kw system costs about £5k installed, and generates about 3500kW in a year.

In the US, you have a patchwork of state based and I think actually, utility commission based rate structures. I'm in a feed-in tariff program in Oregon with PGE (my current power provider), but the same deal won't be available with my new power provider.

We also use net metering in Oregon, with a design limit of 80% of usage, and an annual basis for the net metering, with all excess being donated to our low income energy assistance program.

Some states use net metering only. Some do net metering for usage, and pay wholesale for excess production. Some go the other way and penalize people that produce power. If I've understood one thread correctly, then in at least one jurisdiction, the power company pays wholesale for every kwh produced, and charges retail for every kwh used, even for the kwh that are produced and consumed in the house (never touch the utility's wire, but because of how the meters are setup, they do pass through a production and consumption meter).

The point is that the US is far, far from being a single monolithic power entity (or even many entities operating under the same regulatory framework). There are good historical reasons and good historical outcomes from having such a wide variety of approaches - one being that the country is so vast and so sparsely populated in areas, the rise of rural power districts was necessary to bring electricity to the country side.

Today, I suspect that our badly fragmented energy policies and approaches are becoming a drag on our economy and putting the country at a competitive disadvantage to countries that have a more unified energy policy / approach.

EDIT: for the Mods - while I love some of the spurs @wk057's thread has spawned such as this one, I think that this more generic discussion of off-grid pros and cons, and how to do it, really belong in a new thread, rather than taking up residence here.
 
  • Battery capacity
    • 36 modules from 2.25x Tesla 85kWh packs
    • 191.25 kWh (DC side)
    • ~4,200 Ah
    • 43.2V nominal @ 3.6V per cell
    • 15,984 cells (!)
  • Inverter capacity (8x Outback Radian GS8048A)
    • 240VAC @ 60Hz w/neutral
    • 64kW continuous AC output
    • 30 minute surge: 72kW
    • 5 second surge: 96kW
    • 100ms surge: 135.76kW
    • Grid->Battery Charging Capacity: 57kW
    • Expected AC output from pack after safe SoC window and efficiency considerations: ~160 kWh usable AC
  • PV Capacity (In Progress)
    • 102 Panels @ 435W (20% efficiency)
    • 44,370 Watts DC
    • Split into 17 sets of 6 panels (3 parallel of 2 in series)
    • 17 individual MPPT charge controllers (Midnite Solar Classic 200)
As for cost, I'm going to actually keep that total to myself for the moment. It, admittedly, has gotten a bit out of hand, but it has been too awesome of a project not to see through to the end... budget be damned.


I'm reading this thread with fascination about 18 months after this was posted... did you ever post a total $ :p You could do a vote :p
Well i'll make a guess based on some experience of sizing my system and related enquiries..
Batteries $20k x 3. I'd heard that's what these packs go for. You might have got a discount on the 2/3rds damaged pack.
Inverters $2k x 8. I have a cheapish chinese 4kw inverter - was about £700.
Solar panels. I have LG Neon's 285w listed (but rated at 103% apparently) . The list price is about £150. Yours are the best commercial ones - Sunpower 435's and are a larger physical dimension too 2m x 1m instead ofthe standard 1.6x1m. So Will say $40,000.
MPPT's / Midnite + All the rest. Cables / shut-offs / trunking. And now I'm really guessing - $40k.
60 + 16 + 40 + 30 = circa $156k + a lot of time! Not trying to undermine your secrecy - just pointing out that for most it's going to cost a LOT. But then most people could get away with a 1/8th of this solar capacity and 1/5th the storage depending on electric heating and charging an electric car and how much they want to be off-grid - if 2% grid is ok or 10% grid or sizing for 0% grid.
 
Inverters $2k x 8. I have a cheapish chinese 4kw inverter - was about £700.

Unless he got a killer deal those inverters are slightly north of $4k each...

And those charge controllers go for ~$600ea.

At the time there really weren't many good off-grid options (still not a lot)... but now solar edge and soon Fronius will have much cheaper off-grid options.

Keeping all the DC-side voltages >300v has significant cost savings in terms of efficiency and equipment size. Not to mention that you should be able to keep any salvaged EV pack intact and run its native voltage...
 
  • Informative
Reactions: SeminoleFSU
Unless he got a killer deal those inverters are slightly north of $4k each...

And those charge controllers go for ~$600ea.

At the time there really weren't many good off-grid options (still not a lot)... but now solar edge and soon Fronius will have much cheaper off-grid options.

Keeping all the DC-side voltages >300v has significant cost savings in terms of efficiency and equipment size. Not to mention that you should be able to keep any salvaged EV pack intact and run its native voltage...

The charge controllers were in my 30/40k last bit.
The batteries might have come in cheaper. He might have got a sweet deal on an auction car. I've seen a few Tesla's on auction sites selling for under $10,000 - some are as low as $100 - but that's a pre-auction price.
Salvage Tesla Cars for Sale And Auction
i'd have thought if you look for one with moderate front / rear damage - NOT side then you're more likely to find an intact pack. Looks like most seem to have a battery pack. If it's not self-discharged too much / sat around too long then that's a sweet way to get a battery pack on the cheap - if you know what you're doing!!
But wk057 did allude to a salvaged battery obtained at a cost comparable to other lithium's - so $15-20k for 85kw is a good ballpark.
Anyway still hats off to wk057 for the amazing work here and elsewhere! The autopilot install on the non AP car is even more impressive!
 
for the Mods - while I love some of the spurs @wk057's thread has spawned such as this one, I think that this more generic discussion of off-grid pros and cons, and how to do it, really belong in a new thread, rather than taking up residence here.

I agree. I too would like a "DIY Off Grid Solar" thread. I am currently working on my own setup. I plan on making a bit more progress before I post anything. It's been tough going for me these last few months, had a personal tragedy. But if no one creates one in a few weeks, I will do so myself.
 
An off-grid solar thread would be fantastic especially when focused on using Tesla Tech tied into the mix. Despite the possibility of voiding a factory warranty on the car itself would it even be possible to use a MS or MX as an additional power source (i.e. installing a canon plug/welding cable/extra connectors) considering how the batteries are setup through the bms?

The thought that popped into my head after looking into Jason's setup was this is absolutely FANTASTIC and wouldn't it be amazing to have the two MSs as mobile battery banks that could interconnect for low production weeks or emergencies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SeminoleFSU
...would it even be possible to use a MS or MX as an additional power source...?
Yes, it is possible today with existing super charger capable cars by only making some changes in software. Since supercharging physically connects DC battery to outboard charger, the power can flow in both directions or out of the car into the outboard charger / inverter that can be interconnected with solar panels and house loads. This is exactly what the upcoming integrated solar roof / battery / Tesla charger product should be like. I would be disappointed if it's not. To have your 6kWh powerwall instantly become ~100kWh by plugging in your car would be awesome. Also having DC power path in the system would be great as well, giving better energy efficiency between solar panels and car charging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SeminoleFSU
Yes, it is possible today with existing super charger capable cars by only making some changes in software. Since supercharging physically connects DC battery to outboard charger, the power can flow in both directions or out of the car into the outboard charger / inverter that can be interconnected with solar panels and house loads. This is exactly what the upcoming integrated solar roof / battery / Tesla charger product should be like. I would be disappointed if it's not. To have your 6kWh powerwall instantly become ~100kWh by plugging in your car would be awesome. Also having DC power path in the system would be great as well, giving better energy efficiency between solar panels and car charging.

Don't get too excited about using your car's battery as a power supply for your household, per Elon Musks explanation:

1) In order to supply your (behind-the-meter) grid with power, your Tesla and its charging installation would have to get some (country-dependent) regulatory approval,
2) you want your car to provide you with freedom of travel, so it should not suddenly be low on power nor tied up as an essential component of your household's electricity supply,
3) you could abuse your prepaid super-charger access to supply your (and other) households with 'free' electricity.

So Tesla deems this solution to be more trouble that benefit.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: SW2Fiddler
1. If the system deemed safe, it has to be approved. Regulators cannot forever stall the approval, that's not their job.
2. Users are not dumb. Besides, with big enough powerwall (20kW) + 100A grid (24kW) you can have your own 42kW DC home quickcharger (and discharger! - for times when you fully charge the car but cancel travel plans, so you can discahrge the car somewhat by powering the house, to bring battery voltage down for longer battery life).
3. Non issue. Can be solved with proper administration.

The benefits outweigh your concerns:
1. Automatic opportunity charging when sun is present to maximally soak up solar generation to avoid sending power to the grid.
1a. Using solar roof + powerwall + DC tied Tesla car + DC-AC bidirectional inverter setup in a way to never feed excess solar power to the grid, thus allowing for staying on cheap offpeak non-solar TOU rates with some utilities.
1b. Flexibility to go semi-offgrid, while keeping grid connection to only buy during off-peak to make up the deficit.
2. Instantly backfeeding the grid during periods of grid emergencies - be it from downed transmission lines or record demand like freak cold snaps. Getting paid big bucks when spot price is $1 - 2/kWh. Assuming future real time electricity marked similar to stock market.
3. Grid operator activated dump load for periods of grid oversupply, from excess solar / wind. Free or nearly free power.
4. Frequency regulation services, assuming billing structure exists for fair compensation.
5. The envy of your neighbors when your solar roof + Teslas power your house HVAC at night during 2 weeks without power due to grid damage after hurricane in Florida.

The possibilities are awesome!
 
I agree, V2G (or as part of off grid islanding) is the biggest, maybe only, synergy between Tesla and Solarcity. I hope they pursue it aggressively, despite the previous rhetoric from Tesla. They could start by hiring WK to direct the program!

1. If the system deemed safe, it has to be approved. Regulators cannot forever stall the approval, that's not their job.
2. Users are not dumb. Besides, with big enough powerwall (20kW) + 100A grid (24kW) you can have your own 42kW DC home quickcharger (and discharger! - for times when you fully charge the car but cancel travel plans, so you can discahrge the car somewhat by powering the house, to bring battery voltage down for longer battery life).
3. Non issue. Can be solved with proper administration.

The benefits outweigh your concerns:
1. Automatic opportunity charging when sun is present to maximally soak up solar generation to avoid sending power to the grid.
1a. Using solar roof + powerwall + DC tied Tesla car + DC-AC bidirectional inverter setup in a way to never feed excess solar power to the grid, thus allowing for staying on cheap offpeak non-solar TOU rates with some utilities.
1b. Flexibility to go semi-offgrid, while keeping grid connection to only buy during off-peak to make up the deficit.
2. Instantly backfeeding the grid during periods of grid emergencies - be it from downed transmission lines or record demand like freak cold snaps. Getting paid big bucks when spot price is $1 - 2/kWh. Assuming future real time electricity marked similar to stock market.
3. Grid operator activated dump load for periods of grid oversupply, from excess solar / wind. Free or nearly free power.
4. Frequency regulation services, assuming billing structure exists for fair compensation.
5. The envy of your neighbors when your solar roof + Teslas power your house HVAC at night during 2 weeks without power due to grid damage after hurricane in Florida.

The possibilities are awesome!
 
The benefits outweigh your concerns

Excuse me but as I pointed out, you need to direct your arguments for why the Tesla vehicle battery would be useful as a source of power for a house towards a different person, namely Elon Musk:


(Please manually skip to 19m22s if the TMC forum link parser is too smart for the above link to automatically start at the relevant point in time).

PS. As such I actually agree that the added flexibility of being able to draw power from the vehicle would be useful, when your house has variable electricity cost (due to solar panels/fuel cell and no net metering, lower night rate, etc).
 
Last edited:
Also, there's not much to be gained by discharging your car's battery (versus simply controlling the charge.)

Discharging your car's battery adds cycles to it. I'd rather add cycles to my
Considering most of the time users need <50% of their battery, the MS could simply be left half charged most of the time and charge at a higher SOC when needed (more incoming solar than consumption, excess grid power, etc.) That still leaves you with ~30-50kWh of "free" storage (but you can only ever recharge what you drive; if you don't drive your car for a month straight, you have that 50kWh for the month. If you drive 1 mile/day, you only have a few Wh/day to play with.)

The downside of this is that you can't use your car to power your house (in a grid outage event for example.) But you don't need extra hardware ! Well other than what is needed to "smartify" your car's charger.
 
Yes, it is possible today with existing super charger capable cars by only making some changes in software. Since supercharging physically connects DC battery to outboard charger, the power can flow in both directions or out of the car into the outboard charger / inverter that can be interconnected with solar panels and house loads. This is exactly what the upcoming integrated solar roof / battery / Tesla charger product should be like. I would be disappointed if it's not. To have your 6kWh powerwall instantly become ~100kWh by plugging in your car would be awesome. Also having DC power path in the system would be great as well, giving better energy efficiency between solar panels and car charging.
Self-driving cars that get 100% utilization wouldn't be parked much, except in super-off peak hours when few people need electricity storage (to fill or use). But, in between now and then, a period of a few decades, your idea could work.

Putting together what you and nwdiver said, I think this capability probably won't come out until the grids start asking for it, at which point, it would come out pretty quickly. If the grids never need it, then they won't ask for it. If only certain small grids or regional grids need it but most do not, then there will be sparks, until either they get a workaround or the car companies capitulate. So, according to nwdiver, what we want has nothing to do with it.

The only new information I bring to this thought is that there is a huge benefit to integrating solar panels into roofing material, so Tesla was looking for an end-to-end solution to power the world cleanly. Anything that gets them to that goal will be on the table, and in the view of Tesla, people using grids to power their cars has the potential of keeping coal and oil grid electrical generation in use past when it would have been turned off. Ditto for dams, another thing that the communists in California are trying to take down quickly (I say give it half a century but they want it removed right away, only 5-20 years, and either way, solar and storage are required before that happens). Tesla thinks their stationary storage will help solve that, and they don't see the amalgamated benefit of V2G right now even though "you want to be able to use your house at the same time as your car" from a non-amalgamated point of view. And, as far as Tesla is concerned, if you buy more solar and more stationary storage because V2G is not available, they're getting not only more business but more of the installation of future tech in place. But that only makes sense if they can do V2G in the future.

Bringing this full circle, maybe Tesla hadn't really thought this all the way through, and you are right, but in 2-5 years you should be willing to make a case for it to Tesla. It would help when the charging snakes are installed, because most people don't want to always hook up their car.

Tesla developers live in California in SFBA and GLAA. Both those areas have extended commute hours that often tack on half an hour to an hour to your commute in any direction, if you're lucky, often due to congestion (and usually because of bad drivers). A lot of them probably get home after the sun sets in the darker parts of the year. They are thinking there's no way a car would be able to time shift their electric use enough if there's that big gap in the evening. But, perhaps they haven't run the numbers and seen who does and who doesn't get home at what time and how many of them are plugged in or could be plugged in in the peak evening hours. Some people get off work at 2:30PM while others get off at 6PM. The people who get home early could park their cars, plug in, and keep the lights on for the children and spouses/roommates of those who get home late. And if the cars are plugged into the grid both at work and at home and charging from solar during the day regardless of where they're parked, then this time shifting could be done at all times when they aren't busy driving their car, and there's got to be at least a few cars plugged in at any given moment, even during peak commute. Of course, this will never work when cars can drive themselves and get 100% utilization. People owning their own cars would become a vanity thing that the "rich" do, and they'd be expected to "pay extra", including not having V2G offset their "higher costs".
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SeminoleFSU