Please excuse my absolute PG&E first True-Up bill cluelessness (First True up b/w detail bill)

[dho112]

I just received my first True-Up statement...

I've read over Aesculus' excellent PGE True-Up bill explanation on this forum, and have gone over literally dozens of documents and articles detailing the explanations of how to read a true-up, but in every case, the articles and sample documents are JUST different enough from what I have that it causes a level of significant confusion for me. There are also things like negative numbers flipping to positive and vice versa on different PGE documents, that just makes me pull my hair out.

In the end, despite all the amazing explanations elsewhere and mainly here on this site, I'm still a completely clueless noob when it comes to true-up (This is my first one) This also owing to my deep suspicion of PGE billing practices and hidden fees, and my parents teachings that if something looks to good to be true; It ain't...

Examples are things like "cumulative energy usage being 5,516 on the blue PGE bill and -5,516 on the B/W NEM detail bill, and the fact that everything on the true-up bill is prefixed by "Cumulative", or "Current", "History" and not "Pay this", or "If" etc etc.

I WISH there was just a line on the True Up bill that said, 'Make the check out to PG&E for this EXACT amount"! OR, "Go away, you owe NOTHING! and don't get to roll over any excess either, welp!"

But alas, this is not the case, and every "total" is laced with other "Modifiers" that are then suffixed with "unless" or "except"

Here are the first two pages of my very first true up bill. Please, please let me know if my situation is a potential happy face or a sad face.... Because I am very used to "Surprise!" billing right now being in the middle of a large home construction project that has a signed, "Not to exceed cost quote" that has exceeded 3 times already. Apologies ahead of time for the pathetic-ness of me...

 

[getakey]

the first page tells you everything you need to know. That -$1119.18 means you have way more credits that usage fees. All you owe are the cumulative bypass charges. Basically your system is over-sized for your usage. That -$1119.18 goes poof. You do not get paid for it. If you were conserving, you don't need to. If you have PWs and were rate arbitraging, you can cut back on that and keep more Reserve for unexpected blackout.

 

[dho112]

the first page tells you everything you need to know. That -$1119.18 means you have way more credits that usage fees. All you owe are the cumulative bypass charges. Basically your system is over-sized for your usage. That -$1119.18 goes poof. You do not get paid for it. If you were conserving, you don't need to. If you have PWs and were rate arbitraging, you can cut back on that and keep more Reserve for unexpected blackout.

That's exactly what I needed to know and confirm. I had a feeling things were more than good, but just didn't want to get burned in another one of those "but" situations Thank you for your reply! I will wait for others too. I was definitely heavily conserving especially in the high production months of april-jun when I first got the system, because I was unsure about so much of how it all works; especially any kind of compensation or credits (PG&E does NOT makes this easy to understand)

This past year I've actually been holding back on a lot of my home charging the Tesla till I knew what the bottom line with my solar was going to be. Now that I'm getting a good handle on solar/NEM Credit/Grid costs interaction after this first true-up, there's much more Tesla charging/AC Usage coming up this year

 

[Redhill_qik]

I just received my first True-Up statement...

I've read over Aesculus' excellent PGE True-Up bill explanation on this forum, and have gone over literally dozens of documents and articles detailing the explanations of how to read a true-up, but in every case, the articles and sample documents are JUST different enough from what I have that it causes a level of significant confusion for me. There are also things like negative numbers flipping to positive and vice versa on different PGE documents, that just makes me pull my hair out.

In the end, despite all the amazing explanations elsewhere and mainly here on this site, I'm still a completely clueless noob when it comes to true-up (This is my first one) This also owing to my deep suspicion of PGE billing practices and hidden fees, and my parents teachings that if something looks to good to be true; It ain't...

Examples are things like "cumulative energy usage being 5,516 on the blue PGE bill and -5,516 on the B/W NEM detail bill, and the fact that everything on the true-up bill is prefixed by "Cumulative", or "Current", "History" and not "Pay this", or "If" etc etc.

I WISH there was just a line on the True Up bill that said, 'Make the check out to PG&E for this EXACT amount"! OR, "Go away, you owe NOTHING! and don't get to roll over any excess either, welp!"

But alas, this is not the case, and every "total" is laced with other "Modifiers" that are then suffixed with "unless" or "except"

Here are the first two pages of my very first true up bill. Please, please let me know if my situation is a potential happy face or a sad face.... Because I am very used to "Surprise!" billing right now being in the middle of a large home construction project that has a signed, "Not to exceed cost quote" that has exceeded 3 times already. Apologies ahead of time for the pathetic-ness of me...

View attachment 928406View attachment 928407

Read the sticky thread on this as it covers everything: NEM-PS Annual True-Up Calculation [PG&E example]

Bottom line, you owe nothing extra and will be getting money back for your net exports (exported 7265 minus import 1749 = net export 5,506 kWh). You are with a CCA and the compensation will be at least the average PG&E Net Surplus Compensation rate of $0.05909/kWh for the Apr'22 to Mar'23 or $325.35. Your CCA may pay at a higher rate, but you need to check their NEM rules.

 

[jboy210]

Time to power the Tesla with all those excess kWhs.

 

[h2ofun]

Time to power the Tesla with all those excess kWhs.

This is what I am doing, when I have excess solar after batteries charged. Does not work today since 100% clouds

 

[jboy210]

This is what I am doing, when I have excess solar after batteries charged. Does not work today since 100% clouds

You must have more clouds than us. Even with the clouds, our puny (compared to yours) system is still generating close to 5 kW.

 

[h2ofun]

You must have more clouds than us. Even with the clouds, our puny (compared to yours) system is still generating close to 5 kW.

Yea, they are not too bad. I am doing like 15 kw when normally at this time of day I would be like 21kw.

 

[C DM]

the first page tells you everything you need to know. That -$1119.18 means you have way more credits that usage fees. All you owe are the cumulative bypass charges. Basically your system is over-sized for your usage. That -$1119.18 goes poof. You do not get paid for it. If you were conserving, you don't need to. If you have PWs and were rate arbitraging, you can cut back on that and keep more Reserve for unexpected blackout.

Read the sticky thread on this as it covers everything: NEM-PS Annual True-Up Calculation [PG&E example]

Bottom line, you owe nothing extra and will be getting money back for your net exports (exported 7265 minus import 1749 = net export 5,506 kWh). You are with a CCA and the compensation will be at least the average PG&E Net Surplus Compensation rate of $0.05909/kWh for the Apr'22 to Mar'23 or $325.35. Your CCA may pay at a higher rate, but you need to check their NEM rules.

The stickied explanation thread is nice, but the bill there is somewhat different it would seem. The PG&E True-Up bill in this thread doesn't really seem to mention actual charges that are due or what would be paid out or anything like that. It seems to basically have a running total of things almost like other detailed monthly bills. Is that because the actual charges or credits would be on a true-up bill from CCA?

In this case, it it just CCA that will pay the credits on its true-up while PG&E won't pay any credits or charge anything (aside from the usual minimum monthly charges)?

And what happens to the NBCs, doesn't seem like PG&E has a billing item actually charging for those (aside from simply just reporting the information like on every detailed monthly bill)?

Trying to understand it all better.

 

[Redhill_qik]

The stickied explanation thread is nice, but the bill there is somewhat different it would seem. The PG&E True-Up bill in this thread doesn't really seem to mention actual charges that are due or what would be paid out or anything like that. It seems to basically have a running total of things almost like other detailed monthly bills. Is that because the actual charges or credits would be on a true-up bill from CCA?

In this case, it it just CCA that will pay the credits on its true-up while PG&E won't pay any credits or charge anything (aside from the usual minimum monthly charges)?

And what happens to the NBCs, doesn't seem like PG&E has a billing item actually charging for those (aside from simply just reporting the information like on every detailed monthly bill)?

Trying to understand it all better.

If you go back and re-read the first post every question that you have asked is answered.

First, the PG&E handling for NEM accounts with battery storage (ESS) sucks and with a CCA it sucks even more.

bill in this thread doesn't really seem to mention actual charges that are due

Right at the top of the bill it says "Any charges due are reflected on your monthly PG&E bill ... which is provided separately". So you are right, the black-and-white bill for NEMPS customer doesn't included if/how much you need to pay, but you can figure it out from the information provided on the first page.

or what would be paid out or anything like that

When you are with a CCA, PG&E will never pay you anything.

In this case, it it just CCA that will pay the credits on its true-up

That is what will happen. On your CCA annual true-up month (which often isn't the same as PG&E) they will figure out how much they owe you based on their net export compensation rules and 1-3 months later you will get a check. This amount is not communicated in advance or at least isn't for my CCA which is SVCE.

And what happens to the NBCs,

In this thread the NBCs total for the year was $50.08. This is less than the total monthly MDCs, so nothing is owed. If the NBCs were higher than the annual MDCs then you would be charged the difference on the PG&E blue bill.

 

[C DM]

If you go back and re-read the first post every question that you have asked is answered.

First, the PG&E handling for NEM accounts with battery storage (ESS) sucks and with a CCA it sucks even more.

Right at the top of the bill it says "Any charges due are reflected on your monthly PG&E bill ... which is provided separately". So you are right, the black-and-white bill for NEMPS customer doesn't included if/how much you need to pay, but you can figure it out from the information provided on the first page.

When you are with a CCA, PG&E will never pay you anything.

That is what will happen. On your CCA annual true-up month (which often isn't the same as PG&E) they will figure out how much they owe you based on their net export compensation rules and 1-3 months later you will get a check. This amount is not communicated in advance or at least isn't for my CCA which is SVCE.

In this thread the NBCs total for the year was $50.08. This is less than the total monthly MDCs, so nothing is owed. If the NBCs were higher than the annual MDCs then you would be charged the difference on the PG&E blue bill.

Appreciate the additional details and clarifications as it makes more of it at least somewhat more understandable. I received a similar PG&E true-up bill (or I guess statement) with a smaller cummulitative energy credits amount and a somewhat higher cummulitative NBC amount, but wasn't quite sure if I needed to pay anything or what, if anything would be paid to me. The actual PG&E bill for the same month when the true-up statement became available and a few subsequent PG&E bills didn't have anything more or less on them then the usual minimum monthly charge, so I guess it seems like there wasn't anything more I owed PG&E and nothing that they would be paying me.

The CCA true-up is through April so it sounds like that statement or bill will be becoming available later this month, and I guess I'll see what sort of charges or credits will be there.

 

[Redhill_qik]

The CCA true-up is through April so it sounds like that statement or bill will be becoming available later this month, and I guess I'll see what sort of charges or credits will be there.

From my experience "April" means the bill that has an ending date in April, but for some reason they don't close it out in that bill or at least they don't when the NEM balance is negative.

and the NEM true-up text shows up in the next bill and looks like this:

After looking at this again, my prior statement that the CCA NEM compensation is unknown until you get the check was wrong, as it is clearly shown here.

 

[astrorob]

just as a general question to the experts: how does this happen? i thought you could only install 130% (or some similar small amount over 100%) of your previous average usage for a year or two. i'm surprised to see a 5mwh surplus given those rules.

i suppose the math could still work out if OP lives in sacramento or something and used to have absolutely enormous bills for summertime AC?

 

[h2ofun]

just as a general question to the experts: how does this happen? i thought you could only install 130% (or some similar small amount over 100%) of your previous average usage for a year or two. i'm surprised to see a 5mwh surplus given those rules.

i suppose the math could still work out if OP lives in sacramento or something and used to have absolutely enormous bills for summertime AC?

Folks can have different amounts of electricity used over different amounts of time. I used a LOT more for a few years in the past, which is what I got my solar based on, but for various reasons, have been able to cut back a lot lately. Most folks tend to just go up and up,
which means for many, there percentage of solar vs use actually can go down. Especially if one gets some EV's and or swaps heating from gas to heat pumps. With my EV now, my use is going to go a lot higher, and I will have a lot less excess.
FYI, my highest bills are not in the summer with AC, its in the winter when cold running heat pumps.

 

[astrorob]

i guess i never noticed what PGE would have allowed me to install solar-wise since i was limited by the size of the roof. i did have an EV for 4 years before installing solar so my usage was pretty high (700-1000kwh per month). this probably means i could have installed a much larger system and then perhaps i'd be seeing true-ups like this. at the time the thinking was to only install enough solar to zero the bill but of course with the new TOU hours the IOUs really pulled the carpet out from under us.

 

[h2ofun]

i guess i never noticed what PGE would have allowed me to install solar-wise since i was limited by the size of the roof. i did have an EV for 4 years before installing solar so my usage was pretty high (700-1000kwh per month). this probably means i could have installed a much larger system and then perhaps i'd be seeing true-ups like this. at the time the thinking was to only install enough solar to zero the bill but of course with the new TOU hours the IOUs really pulled the carpet out from under us.

Yep, which is why I always post, get the largest array one can fit on their roof and get approved, but, ...

 

[Redhill_qik]

just as a general question to the experts: how does this happen? i thought you could only install 130% (or some similar small amount over 100%) of your previous average usage for a year or two. i'm surprised to see a 5mwh surplus given those rules.

i suppose the math could still work out if OP lives in sacramento or something and used to have absolutely enormous bills for summertime AC?

How does what happen?

 

[astrorob]

How does what happen?

these huge (-5MWh) yearly exports. i thought the IOUs pretty much explicitly limited the size of a system so that you aren't a net exporter like this. it just seems too large to me. of course someone could move out of the house and then have no consumption or something but i'm assuming that didn't happen here.

 

[Redhill_qik]

these huge (-5MWh) yearly exports. i thought the IOUs pretty much explicitly limited the size of a system so that you aren't a net exporter like this. it just seems too large to me. of course someone could move out of the house and then have no consumption or something but i'm assuming that didn't happen here.

If you were using 10-14MWh/year prior to solar then a 30% oversize gets to to 3.0-4.2 MWh/year next export. Reasons for oversizing are primarily for planned conversions from gas to electric and the addition of EVs.

I started with about 4MWh of net exports. Adding an electric hybrid heat pump has reduced that by 0.8MWh, an EV has reduced by another 1MWh, a second EV and eventual conversion from gas HVAC to electric heat pump HVAC will take it to zero or positive.