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Please help on abnormal tire wear (Track). Thanks!

wkeally

Member
Aug 7, 2020
24
2
Orange County, CA
Hello Everyone,

I experienced what I think is some abnormal tire wear at the track (driver side front&rear inner tire peeling) 9,000mi on tires (daily driven & track 2 times). I'm just looking for people's input on what you guys think may be causing this sort of tread wear. Some of the reasons I'm thinking are too low tire pressures, lowering the car w/ out camber arms (visually my camber looks neutral still, but maybe I should get my alignment checked professionally), CCW track direction, tire manufacturer defect. Appreciate any input, thanks!

Background info: 2020 Model 3 Performance w/ aftermarket 20x9 et 38 wheels on 245 35 R20 PS4S tires (passenger side rear replaced @ 5000mi due to nail in sidewall), running 38 HOT in the front and 36 HOT in the rear for track tire pressures. I went to the track twice w/ these tires at Streets of Willow, both times running CCW. My times are around 1:29 - 1:32. Other aftermarket upgrades: Eibach lowering springs, Eibach front & rear sway bars, MPP front&rear rotors, steel brake lines, Endless EX99 pads, & Castrol SRF fluid.

worn tires 1.25.21.jpg
 

dance.parrot

Member
Mar 4, 2020
30
29
Switzerland
Definitely get alignment checked after replacing the tires. You passenger front (which is rotated in the photo) also shows sign of heavy inside wear.

Your inner tire wear looks a lot like what I had here M3P front inside tire wear

In my case, the cause was bad toe, with no track use on the tires.

Also, PS4S tires are not great for the track on this car. I've seen some someone completely destroy the outside of a brand new set of PS4Ses in one track day with a Model 3 Performance.
 

wkeally

Member
Aug 7, 2020
24
2
Orange County, CA
Definitely get alignment checked after replacing the tires. You passenger front (which is rotated in the photo) also shows sign of heavy inside wear.

Your inner tire wear looks a lot like what I had here M3P front inside tire wear

In my case, the cause was bad toe, with no track use on the tires.

Also, PS4S tires are not great for the track on this car. I've seen some someone completely destroy the outside of a brand new set of PS4Ses in one track day with a Model 3 Performance.

Yeah forgot to flip the passenger front photo :oops:

Your wear does look very similar to mine. I will definitely get my alignment checked out this week.

Do you have any tire recommendations for the track? I'm gong to keep the PS4S as my daily driver / canyon tire. And plan on getting some 18 or 19 inch Konig wheels for the track with Cup 2s.

Appreciate your input it helped a lot!
 

dfwatt

Active Member
Sep 24, 2018
3,092
5,101
FL
Hello Everyone,

I experienced what I think is some abnormal tire wear at the track (driver side front&rear inner tire peeling) 9,000mi on tires (daily driven & track 2 times). I'm just looking for people's input on what you guys think may be causing this sort of tread wear. Some of the reasons I'm thinking are too low tire pressures, lowering the car w/ out camber arms (visually my camber looks neutral still, but maybe I should get my alignment checked professionally), CCW track direction, tire manufacturer defect. Appreciate any input, thanks!

Background info: 2020 Model 3 Performance w/ aftermarket 20x9 et 38 wheels on 245 35 R20 PS4S tires (passenger side rear replaced @ 5000mi due to nail in sidewall), running 38 HOT in the front and 36 HOT in the rear for track tire pressures. I went to the track twice w/ these tires at Streets of Willow, both times running CCW. My times are around 1:29 - 1:32. Other aftermarket upgrades: Eibach lowering springs, Eibach front & rear sway bars, MPP front&rear rotors, steel brake lines, Endless EX99 pads, & Castrol SRF fluid.

View attachment 630579

I'm assuming from your description here that you lowered the car but didn't get it realigned after you installed your Springs? That's probably not a good idea anyway. But most of the time when you track the Pilot Sport 4S you destroy the outer edge. Especially if you don't have 2.5 + degrees of negative camber on the front. Get a tire that's built for the track and if you're serious about tracking you need the front upper control arms from MPP or from Redwood. Most people think the MPP setup is easier to adjust.
 

wkeally

Member
Aug 7, 2020
24
2
Orange County, CA
I'm assuming from your description here that you lowered the car but didn't get it realigned after you installed your Springs? That's probably not a good idea anyway. But most of the time when you track the Pilot Sport 4S you destroy the outer edge. Especially if you don't have 2.5 + degrees of negative camber on the front. Get a tire that's built for the track and if you're serious about tracking you need the front upper control arms from MPP or from Redwood. Most people think the MPP setup is easier to adjust.

Eibach confirmed to me that they did do an alignment after installing the lowering springs back in August, so maybe an alignment issue has happened since then?

Do you have any tire recommendations? I'm planning on getting a second set of wheels strictly for the track. I'm thinking 18 or 19inch Konig wheels and getting Cup 2s.

Also, I will definitely look into getting those front upper control arms asap!
 

MountainPass

Vendor
Mar 2, 2018
1,433
2,821
Toronto, Canada
Yeah, Eibach installed the lowering springs and they did the alignment as well. This was back in August, so maybe alignment issue was caused since then?
I am just surprised that you were driving a CCW track and trashed your DS tires!

I could see 4 and 11 being tough on them, but something else must be up:

WillowSpringsStreetsofWillowCCWBlankMapSmall.jpg
 

Mash

Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
950
694
Prague
Buy cup2 connect - they are stronger and better.

Tire wear looks like too much sliding with too much stability control. This is how it looks when ediff brakes inner wheels when they already overheated, but still can't get enough traction.

I hope you don't plan to drive any of those 3 old tires on the photo.
 

wkeally

Member
Aug 7, 2020
24
2
Orange County, CA
Buy cup2 connect - they are stronger and better.

Tire wear looks like too much sliding with too much stability control. This is how it looks when ediff brakes inner wheels when they already overheated, but still can't get enough traction.

I hope you don't plan to drive any of those 3 old tires on the photo.

On track mode I use 30 / 70 rear bias with stability assist -10 (all the way to the left) and regen breaking 100%.

I replaced them this morning (track day was yesterday) :)

I'll look into those cup 2 connects
 

Mash

Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
950
694
Prague
On track mode I use 30 / 70 rear bias with stability assist -10 (all the way to the left) and regen breaking 100%.

I replaced them this morning (track day was yesterday) :)

I'll look into those cup 2 connects
Aside of too much camber option, then, it have to be too low pressure for that width and power sliding with sway bar lifting inner wheel too much.

But anyway, 4s is not a track temp tire (it's like super soft) and 245 is too small to spread the heat.

If you want dedicated tire for track - consider a052 295x35 on 18x10.5 inch with front camber arms. That should also help eating some curbs on a lowered springs setup vs 20 inch.

But then, for the track you have not enough energy absorption of stock suspension, so wheel offloads too much, transitions too slow. If you're there - change a suspension already to MPP sport.
 
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dance.parrot

Member
Mar 4, 2020
30
29
Switzerland
Do you have any tire recommendations for the track? I'm gong to keep the PS4S as my daily driver / canyon tire. And plan on getting some 18 or 19 inch Konig wheels for the track with Cup 2s.

If you're going to get a dedicated set of wheels for the track (which is ideal), go with a track dedicated tire. Cup 2 is a great tire, but Michelin made compromises with it to make it work for street as well. If you only have 1 set of wheels, Cup 2 is a good compromise, but for track wheels, look at 100 treadwear tires.

I personally use Konig Dekagram 19X9.5B 5X114.3 ET35 (yes profile B clears performance brakes and is 1lb lighter than profile A), with Nankang AR1 265/35 R19 and am happy with the setup.

With third-party wheels, get hub-centric rings. For the Dekagrams, I use these 73,1 - 70,1 mm rings and don't get any vibration:
10 x Centring Rings Spacer Alloy s60 73,1 - 70,1 MM CMS, DBV-NEW | eBay
 
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MoreAgain

Member
Nov 23, 2018
380
426
San Diego
I personally use Konig Dekagram 19X9.5B 5X114.3 ET35 with Nankang AR1 265/35 R19.

With third-party wheels, get hub-centric rings. For the Dekagrams, I use these 73,1 - 70,1 mm rings
How much trouble do you have removing your wheels with the hub centric rings? I have similar set up as you. I started with plastic rings and they practically melted and had to be pried off. Now I have metal rings and they hold up well, but make removing the wheels very difficult. I'm considering going without them altogether.
 

dance.parrot

Member
Mar 4, 2020
30
29
Switzerland
How much trouble do you have removing your wheels with the hub centric rings? I have similar set up as you. I started with plastic rings and they practically melted and had to be pried off. Now I have metal rings and they hold up well, but make removing the wheels very difficult. I'm considering going without them altogether.

No problem at all removing the wheels with the hub centric rings. I could only source plastic ones in that size when I got the wheels and I expected them to melt, so I got 2 sets of 10 for good measure. After 3 track days, I'm still using the original 4 plastic rings. And I was using the brakes (Carbotech XP12 pads) to the point where the stock front rotors now are starting to crack and have brake judder, so there was some heat put into the system. Maybe it's a different plastic compound (the rings are made in Germany)?

What size are your rings? Mine are 73.1 to 70.1 mm on paper, measured 73.00 to 70.26 mm, so around 0.1 mm of breathing room vs. the wheel specs.

When I first installed the wheels without the hub centric rings, I was getting a bit of vibration in the steering wheel. Not a lot, be enough to feel it, despite tightening the lug nuts with the car lifted and the brake pedal applied, first at 70, then 100 and then 129 lbs-ft, to give it wheel the best chance to center correctly on the OEM conical lug nuts.
 

wkeally

Member
Aug 7, 2020
24
2
Orange County, CA
So got my alignment done today and here are the results. Looks like my toe was pretty off. My question is, can normal track driving cause that much alignment issues or would it be more likely from hitting a pothole or something? Thanks.
 

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  • alignment 1.26.21.jpg
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MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,137
1,865
USA
So got my alignment done today and here are the results. Looks like my toe was pretty off. My question is, can normal track driving cause that much alignment issues or would it be more likely from hitting a pothole or something? Thanks.

Highly unlikely the toe changed from driving on track. Toe changes are generally the result of an impact (such as a pothole).

Nonetheless, your front camber is not nearly enough. Anything less than -2 degrees and you are going to chew the edges of your tires. The Model 3 needs camber.
 

wkeally

Member
Aug 7, 2020
24
2
Orange County, CA
Nonetheless, your front camber is not nearly enough. Anything less than -2 degrees and you are going to chew the edges of your tires. The Model 3 needs camber.

I will definitely be getting adjustable front upper control arms and rear camber arms soon. Do you have any brand recommendations, I see MPP and UP, and am deciding between the two. Also what degree camber are you running in the front & rear for the track? Thanks.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,137
1,865
USA
I will definitely be getting adjustable front upper control arms and rear camber arms soon. Do you have any brand recommendations, I see MPP and UP, and am deciding between the two. Also what degree camber are you running in the front & rear for the track? Thanks.

In my personal experience, MPP products and after-sales support is unmatched. I am running -2.75 in the front and -2.5 in the rear with pretty good results. I may back the rear down to -2.25 if anything.
 

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