Pleather for all...

[ahkahn]

I received the Ultraleather swatch card today. While it feels exactly like the white seats, I don't think the grain is the same. I will have to take another look at the seats to see if it matches exactly.

Typically on the card it is not stretched as is it would be during the upholstery application. The grain in Ultraleather is more of a dynamic grain, meaning that it stretches out smooth unlike a typical vinyl which would retain it's grain regardless of the stretch.

 

[DarkMatter]

I would love to have the ethics, diets and cholesterol level discussions moved to another thread.

I only want to talk about the qualities of the leather replacement. I am all for something that wears better, is easier to clean and softer.

Then we can start another thread about using the new stuff to make motorcycle suits.

I suspect for a motorcycle suit application it would have to be over a nylon designed for the purpose. There are great textile motorcycle suits, but soft and comfy are not words one would use to describe them. Even leather motorcycle suits tend toward being rather heavy.

 

[P85DEE]

This is a huge mistake.

 

[Mark Z]

This is an interesting comparison: Choosing Vinyl or Leather Seats as Car Upholstery Options

 

[DarkMatter]

This is an interesting comparison: Choosing Vinyl or Leather Seats as Car Upholstery Options

At least in older Mercedes vehicles the vinyl typically holds up better. That article seems to make quite a few assumptions which may or may not prove out true.

 

[jelloslug]

This is a huge mistake.

Go sit on both seats and then get back to us.

 

[ahkahn]

This is an interesting comparison: Choosing Vinyl or Leather Seats as Car Upholstery Options

There is so much wrong with this article that I find it hard to believe that Angieslist would even allow it on their website.

Again, ALL "leather" interiors use vinyl. That's why you'll never see a leather interior marketed as "100% leather interior", you see it as "Leatherette", "Leather-appointed", or simply "Leather". Don't believe me? Check the back of the seats, the headrest, and the side panels near where your elbows hit. The only Leather is typically in the inserts around your butt and lower back.

For seating applications, cared for vinyl will always wear better than cared for leather. Ultraleather (the white seating material) will hold up even better than your average vinyl.

In the last 20 years, has anyone seen summer-time "sticky vinyl seats"? This isn't the 1970's or 80's guys. It doesn't do it anymore.

The article is correct about the flammability, although it is not an absolute.

It claims that vinyl is NO WAY a green product. Again, we are starting to dive into symantecs. Vinyl is 100% recyclable, since it's a plastic, and contains no harmful waste products... Leather, on the other hand, is not 100% "green". The tanning chemicals are extremely toxic and the process generates a lot of harmful by-products.

For those that don't want to read so many pages, my business is a wholesale distribution company of upholstery fabrics and supplies. I sell vinyl, Ultraleather, and genuine leather all day every day. Each has it's purpose, and I'm not knocking one or the other short of debunking common misconceptions.

Also, don't forget that the foams and other plastics used are all petroleum-based products.... so that rules out the entire "non-petroleum" angle.

 

[jaguar36]

For seating applications, cared for vinyl will always wear better than cared for leather.

Not in my experience. I've had two BMWs, one with Leather and one with vinyl "Leatherette". The vinyl seats were ripped in a few places after ~70k miles, while the real leather looks great with 100k miles on it.

Also, if the White seats are Ultraleather (Which I'm rather skeptical about) its not a Vinyl, its a polyurethane. (At least according to Ultraleather's marketing)

 

[Mark Z]

...vinyl seats were ripped in a few places after ~70k miles, while the real leather looks great with 100k miles on it.

Your comment agrees with this article: Get Covered - Leather vs Vinyl Mythbusters

 

[ahkahn]

Not in my experience. I've had two BMWs, one with Leather and one with vinyl "Leatherette". The vinyl seats were ripped in a few places after ~70k miles, while the real leather looks great with 100k miles on it.

Also, if the White seats are Ultraleather (Which I'm rather skeptical about) its not a Vinyl, its a polyurethane. (At least according to Ultraleather's marketing)

Ultraleather is a polyurethane, that is correct. Not a PVC. I was talking about that further back in this thread.

Again, the "leather" interior was not 100% leather. Not sure (without seeing it) what parts actually ripped, but there are a lot of variables in the mix. Using products like ArmorAll will destroy the vinyl (you won't know it when you do it), and 6-12 months later the vinyl will fall apart. There are a lot of harsh cleaners out there that can damage the vinyl and make it crack, tear, etc. A mild soap and water to clean it and it will look brand new for many years. The "leather" that looked great with 100k miles on it, was there any wear at all on it? Where was the wear? I'll bet the side-by-side with the vinyl shows the vinyl sections wore better than the leather sections. Post a pic and I can show you. The other main variable is the quality of each used. For instance, my last car, a Ford Fusion Energi, used a cheap vinyl and a cheap leather for the "leather" interior. at 70k miles, the leather wrinkled in weird places, and the vinyl wore in the high traffic area (left driver bolster). It was junk vinyl paired with an average leather.

Your comment agrees with this article: Get Covered - Leather vs Vinyl Mythbusters

I sell to trim shops all day every day. This is a craft that has been around forever. Trimmers are artists, but certainly not experts in the technology. Their incentive is to sell expensive leather, as they make more money. I sell leather and vinyl to trimmers, so I'm happy when they sell a big leather job... it rolls upstream to me. 25-30 years ago, this information is correct. In the last 15 years, vinyl technology has changed dramatically. It is totally different than it was 25-30 years ago. Polyurethanes didn't exist, PVC topcoats were way inferior to today's topcoats (that's the protective layer on vinyl), and the substrates were completely different (cotton, nonwoven, or rayon backings versus today's heavy-knit polyesters). My point is that this article is on a trimmer's website and is antiquated information.

Easy way to prove my point: Google wyzenbeek abrasion ratings for vinyls and for genuine leather. I explained up above what they Wyzenbeek test is, but essentially it is a test where "rubs" using cotton duck (blue jean material) are measured across a material. Heavy-duty is considered anything over 25,000 double rubs. Most vinyls are 50,000-100,000+ double rubs (up to even 2.5 million double rubs), and a good leather may hit 30,000 double rubs. The Ultraleather used in the white interior passes 400,000 double rubs. That's a lot. EDIT: Just looked at Herman Miller's website, and their top of the line highest grade 11 leather hits 100,000 double rubs.

Knowing the business and the facts behind each product, once educated, the only people that still want genuine leather are the ones that want to blow their money on it just so they can say "I have real leather".

 

[jaguar36]

The "leather" that looked great with 100k miles on it, was there any wear at all on it? Where was the wear? I'll bet the side-by-side with the vinyl shows the vinyl sections wore better than the leather sections.

Not at all, the vinyl actually looked much worse. The texture had all worn off it and it generally looked terrible. The leather still looks great. I'm referring the to the seat bottom here.

 

[Visscher]

Next month the leather options will be back. Along with supercharging options. And everything else they put in and out of production and everyone forgets that it happens, this is Tesla.

 

[AustinPowers]

I just hope Tesla offers Ultra White seats on the Model 3 eventually. I hate black interiors, no matter whether they are cloth, leather, vinyl, plastic, dyed banana leaf or whatever!

 

[Canuck]

I would love to have the ethics, diets and cholesterol level discussions moved to another thread.

The company’s vegan transformation comes roughly two years after PETA—a Tesla shareholder—spoke at the company’s 2015 annual meeting. In our discussions with the company, we pointed out that Tesla could reduce its carbon footprint by using only vegan leather. When we asked Tesla to offer only vegan leather for its car interiors, CEO Elon Musk said he would “absolutely” consider it. By launching the next model with a vegan option just 18 months later, Tesla seems to have now converted to all-synthetic interiors.

Tesla's Removal of Leather Will Give You Hope for a Sustainable Future

It certainly appears that ethics may have lead to this change so wanting it removed from this thread, and put in another thread, makes no sense to me. If it bothers people, then it's easy enough to start another thread dealing with the quality of fake leather since that's a very specific sub-issue to the issues in this thread. This thread's title is "Pleather for All" and thus ethical, environmental, diet, quality, etc. all belong here, at least in my view. It seems to me the change to fake leather was made for a number of reasons and it may be that ethics and environmental issues, rather than quality or profit margin, were at the top of the list when making this decision, so perhaps the ethical issue belongs here more than the quality issue. However, since Tesla is silent on the reason for the change we can only speculate.

I buy EVs mainly because of their environmental benefits, as probably a number of others did here. We like to discuss environmental, ethical and other benefits of EV's, as well as performance and quality issues, and I certainly hope this place doesn't carve those issues out of threads since that's the main reason a lot of us own Teslas and like to visit here and post. I know for me I have zero interest in posting on other car forums, like say BMW, about the quality of the interior. That seems like a waste of time to me but to each their own. At the same time, I read with great interest the posts from @ahkahn about the quality of fake leather vs. real leather, intertwined with ethical, environmental and dietary issue posts. To me, that's what makes this place special and different than all other car forums and I sure hope it says that way and doesn't turn into a traditional vehicle forum, which would have me headed for the door (likely to some scattered applause).

 

[whttiger25]

Tesla's Removal of Leather Will Give You Hope for a Sustainable Future

It certainly appears that ethics may have lead to this change so wanting it removed from this thread, and put in another thread, makes no sense to me. If it bothers people, then it's easy enough to start another thread dealing with the quality of fake leather since that's a very specific sub-issue to the issues in this thread. This thread's title is "Pleather for All" and thus ethical, environmental, diet, quality, etc. all belong here, at least in my view. It seems to me the change to fake leather was made for a number of reasons and it may be that ethics and environmental issues, rather than quality or profit margin, were at the top of the list when making this decision, so perhaps the ethical issue belongs here more than the quality issue. However, since Tesla is silent on the reason for the change we can only speculate.

I buy EVs mainly because of their environmental benefits, as probably a number of others did here. We like to discuss environmental, ethical and other benefits of EV's, as well as performance and quality issues, and I certainly hope this place doesn't carve those issues out of threads since that's the main reason a lot of us own Teslas and like to visit here and post. I know for me I have zero interest in posting on other car forums, like say BMW, about the quality of the interior. That seems like a waste of time to me but to each their own. At the same time, I read with great interest the posts from @ahkahn about the quality of fake leather vs. real leather, intertwined with ethical, environmental and dietary issue posts. To me, that's what makes this place special and different than all other car forums and I sure hope it says that way and doesn't turn into a traditional vehicle forum, which would have me headed for the door (likely to some scattered applause).

Thanks so much for this post Canuck, and I wholeheartedly agree. While Tesla is always striving to make the best "car" possible, their mission statement has always been "to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport". A conversion from leather to vegan seats is, in a small way, contributing to that mission. If the quality of the material can exceed the feel and utility of leather then they also maintain their goal of building the best car.

Tesla has continued to do things differently than other auto makers, by offering continuous software updates, and upgrading the vehicle multiples times throughout a given year and ditching the model year convention, as just a few examples. Model S customers have always been a mix of car enthusiasts, technology enthusiasts, and environmental enthusiasts, most likely falling into 2 or all 3 of those categories. This seat change, for a variety of reasons, could be seen as a plus for those in any of those 3 categories. Environmentally it's clear. From a technology perspective, this material is very high tech, and from a car enthusiast perspective, it feels as soft as leather, but cleans easier and wears longer.

Going back to the environmentalists, no matter how environmental any of us likes to think we are, we often lack information necessary to truly understand the impact of our decisions as consumers. Environmental enthusiasts may decide to buy a Tesla to reduce their carbon emissions, but emit more carbon than they ever did driving by eating beef or consuming leather - and just not know it. I think considering the varied reasons for owning a Tesla, and the fact that these "Vegan" seats could have been implemented by Tesla for a variety of reasons, that this is a great broad discussion to have under this topic.

 

[jeffro01]

So maybe you're taking this too personally, thinking I am attacking your farming background, which I am sure was ethical and humane and not at all like the factory farms of today. I have no problem with a lot of farming of animals. I highly doubt your farm looked like this, but you can correct me if I'm wrong:

View attachment 237936

Nope, none of my family own facilities like that. That being said, I have been in plenty like them and fail to see what the issue here is... Of course I'm kidding, I see what you're issue there is... I just don't lose sleep over it.

Agreed. It's also mean-spirited. While I'm not vegan or vegetarian, the friends and family members I have who are not borderline mental at all. You get mad at a joke yet you make a statement like this, which I assume is not in jest, and you call me "morally suspect"? Calling people who prefer not to eat animal products bordering on a mental disease is morally reprehensible in my view.

Apparently both you and the other poster also missed the part where I said I fully support live and let live on this as well... Yeah I get that my statement may have come off as offensive, it usually does which is why I don't say it much... Don't like it? Don't care...

Jeff

 

[Mark Z]

Perhaps the highest quality leather could be available soon by some 3rd party retailers/installers.

One wonders what will happen to Tesla's leather accessory line: Tesla — Tesla Design Collection

 

[DarkMatter]

I would love to get one of the leather fob sources in Ultra White. Given that the item list in the design collection has been getting smaller and smaller I bet they are just going until they are sold out.

 

[jeffro01]

For the record. I will no longer derail this thread based on my side conversations with other members regarding the ethics or personal emotions around real leather products. This is my last post on that but just wanted to be clear I don't intend on continuing to drag this down.

Jeff

 

[mkspeedr]

My goal was to just focus the discussion on the title Pleather - my closed mind only considered the discussion of the material - not what is driving the selection of material. But Pleather is open ended enough title we can we can keep the ethics, diets and cholesterol conversations going.

It also means I can include my motorcycle leather replacement information. Alien Moto Motorcycle Rider Protection Suit