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Plug and 100Amp line sticker shock

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by efusco, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    Just had a couple electricians come by the house for estimates on getting 1)NEMA 15-40 outlet in my garage, & 2)wiring a 100AMP line for later connection of my HPC.

    The first estimate is in and came to $850 for just the NEMA 15-40 + ~$1300 for the 100 amp line!

    Problem is my breaker box is completely on the opposite side of the house from my garage and no easy access to run the line...gonna have to run it up through a roundabout area in the attic. Optionally could have had a separate meter installed, but that would have involved digging up my yard to run those lines.

    I'm not happy about that cost and my wife will be even less happy. Just another $2000 on top of the $1500 for the air suspension and $1100 for delivery....almost like money...:scared:
     
  2. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    @efusco, here's a rough breakdown of my costs doing the install myself:

    Electrical Permit: $250
    Wiring (70') + conduit + breaker: $300
    Outdoor rated box + NEMA 14/50 outlet: $ 100

    Total: $650

    I used a Hubbel HBL9450A receptacle which is very heavy duty and manufactured in USA.

    It took me about 3 hours to run all the wire, with about 1 hour in the attic and another 1 hour patching access holes. Given the oportunity to do all over again, I would pay someone $850 just to avoid working in an attic. No fun crawling around between joists.

    It would not surprise me if a large part of the $1300 cost is the cost of wiring as it is most likely 4/3 wiring. Good luck, I feel your pain.
     
  3. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    why install 100A service? I had an HPC wired at 70A and took it off the wall because it was never used... 32A/40A is more then enough for most drivers.
     
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  4. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #4 dsm363, Jun 18, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
    I agree.

    efusco : If the cost of the 100A line means you are less likely to get the Model S, stick with the NEMA 14-50. You can always have them come back and do the HPC later if you found out you charging at 40A is too slow for you. I've only had one or two times where I would have liked faster charging since I got the Roadster in Dec. 2009 and even then, it wasn't a problem. You'd also save the $2500 from the wiring and the HPC.

    I was in the same situation. The breaker box is all the way on the other side of the house and they had to dig a tunnel in my back yard to run the wiring for my NEMA 14-50. Since they were doing all that work, I had them install a second 14-50 outlet. The total was $1,000 and took them about 8 hours.
     
  5. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    Experienced roadster owners keep telling me this...and you'd think I'd start listening at some point. But honestly I just am anxious that there will be times that I'll need the faster charge rates...but perhaps you're right that I can/should wait. We are talking about $2500...
    I'll see...I put in for a home equity line of credit today, so I'm hoping that will ease the financial pressure a bit and let me just do what I want, but if push comes to shove perhaps I'll save the HPC and 100amp for later.
     
  6. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    What battery pack are you likely to get? What's the farthest you'd see yourself driving (how much would you have left on your pack before you had to turn around and head back out again)? If you're going to frequently come home almost on empty and have to turn around in an hour or two and drive another 100 miles or more then you should get the HPC. If that's a very rare situation and especially if you have an ICE as a backup, I'd start with the HPC and see how often this situation arises. Telsa says the UMC will charge at 31 miles of range an hour (I assume that's ideal miles so may a little more than 20 estimated miles/hour of range) so as long as when you get home you have a few hours to charge before you have to head out again, you should be ok. The only times I've ever really needed an HPC is when I was traveling, not at home.
     
  7. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    Plus you wouldn't need the twin charger, another $1500.
     
  8. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Good catch. Didn't think of that one. So $4,000 less for something probably not needed. I understand they can add the second charger later (probably for more than $1,500) but I'd confirm that first when you configure your car. Might be safer to install the second charger if that's something you think you'll really need but really the Superchargers will probably be as abundant as public 80A chargers in the wild so that second charger isn't as useful.
     
  9. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    And they're right. What size battery are you getting? Even the big one fully recharges in 10 hours, and that assumes you drive 265 miles on two consecutive days!

    The more likely issue is getting a second EV. What I recommend is getting a 100 amp sub panel installed in the garage. They'll run the same gauge wire as for the HPC, but end it in a subpanel. Then, have them put in a 50 amp break to a conveniently positioned NEMA 14-50.

    Now you can either add a second NEMA 14-50 for your second car, or if you really decide you need it, you can just replace the last little bit of line with a 100 amp line to the HPC for a low additional cost.
     
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    I'm getting the 85kWh Pack. I'll not infrequently drive 60-70 miles in a day without chance to recharge. Occasionally I'll drive 130 miles (lake house and back) without recharge and then need to drive another 30 round trip. About once a month I'll need to quickly top up charge in order to drive around 200-265 miles to one of the bigger cities in my vicinity for various events. I hope Superchargers will be abundant, but I'm not counting on them in my part of the world for several years, just not that many of us hillbillies with EVs yet.

    I'll definately still get the twin chargers as I anticipate that I'll be borrowing fellow Tesla owners' HPCs when I'm traveling longer trips to Kansas City, St.Louis, Little Rock, Memphis, Tulsa, etc. and would want to top up as efficiently as possible.

    I like the idea of a single 100 amp line and twin 14-50s--that makes a lot of sense...the only potential drawback I can think of is if I add the HPC later then I won't have that backup 14-50 to use for a second EV (assuming it's not a Tesla).

    Some good ideas and food for thought, folks. I am taking all of your suggestions seriously, I just tend to be stubborn once I decide I need/want something, but I'll probably come back in a couple years preaching the same sermon to others having a similar dilemma.
     
  11. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    Planning to use a similar configuration using a Hubbel HBL9450A receptacle along with a 50 Amp Double-Pole Circuit Breaker and 6-3 wire. I do not have a garage and my driveway is ~ 60 feet from the panel. The wire travels outside and I have to run it through a conduit. I am not comfortable with my current panel box so will get an electrician to install a new one.
     
  12. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    The sum of the breakers in a panel is typically more than the main breaker for that panel. Check with an electrician, but you should be able to have, say, a 70 amp HPC and a 50 amp 14-50 inside a 100 amp panel. Obviously, if you run them both at full bore at the same time you'll pop the breaker, but you could run them both at 50 amps (actually drawing 40 each) without a problem.

    I don't understand the appeal of the HPC except to have a nice looking station. In that case, you can run it on a 50 amp breaker (or 70 amp like I suggested above) and be fine.

    Maybe we should do a poll about Model S owners putting in HPCs. I would have thought the percentages for that to be really low, like under 5%. Your post, however, makes it seem that every middle American Tesla is sold with an HPC. Why do you think that?
     
  13. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    Again, a fair question. I suppose I assumed most people chose to have the HPC installed as their permanant charger and kept the regular cable for travel/portable use.

    I suppose the alternative would be to buy and extra cable, one to keep in the garage and one to keep in the trunk.

    I think I'll just feel out the other estimates I've asked for and see how I'm feeling after that. What you guys are saying makes a lot of sense.
     
  14. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I just detach the UMC when I travel. When I'm in town (especially since you'll have the 85 kWh pack), you'd never need the UMC so it's safe to leave that at home. The HPC does look better though. Good luck.
     
  15. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I'd think the main reason for getting the HPC is so that you could charge other Teslas.
     
  16. strider

    strider Active Member

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    In my experience there's a bit of "EV inflation" from electricians (similar to wedding inflation) where once they hear that the work is for an EV the price goes up as they assume EV owners are "rich" and unknowledgeable. For 14-50 estimates I've told people to tell the electrician to not mention EV and instead say it's for when your brother parks his RV in your driveway during Christmas.
     
  17. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    As a rule, I only carry the J1772 adapter with me on a regular basis. Here in CA there are more J1772s than RV parks - at least where I seem to travel. For the kind of money these HPCs and UMCs cost, it's worth it to make do with only one. At $1000 for the second UMC I didn't get, I figure for the next 5 years I'm earning about $10,000 per hour (after taxes!) during the few seconds needed to unplug the UMC and put it in the trunk. That goes down per year, but you get the point.

    BTW, +1 on Stider's Tell them it's for RV's, not EV's suggestion. Just say you want a 100 amp subpanel with a single NEMA 14-50 for RVs for now. The subpanel is always a good idea for expansion (Air conditioning, power tools, etc.).
     
  18. drbradfo

    drbradfo Member

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    I just had a 50 Amp breaker and a 14-50 receptacle installed this morning. Lucky for me, the breaker box is on the driver side of the garage, so I had the 14-50 installed about 6 inches below the box. Still will cost me $300 bucks (service, equipment, & permit).
     
  19. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    +1

    I've got a 70AMP HPC on my wall (primary reason being that I like the look of the HPC, rather than an ugly box hanging off a plug on the wall), but run it at 48Amp.

    Last night, I came back after a busy day with @60% SOC. Plugged in, and a little over two hours later charging was done at 96% SOC. The car (and charger) that sat idle for the rest of the night (about 10 hours before I needed it again).

    If I could get a 40Amp HPC, I would. (yes, I know you can in USA, but at the time here in HK they were only selling the 70Amp versions, and they can't be dialed down by that little rotary dial - which doesn't exist on the HPCs here).
     
  20. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    Curious what mine will cost, it should be dirt cheap. I've got a dryer breaker I'm not using (switched to a gas dryer) and my breaker panel is about 3 feet from where I'd want the plug, so it should be inexpensive.
     

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