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Plug In Cars article questioning long term viability of TM

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@rcc;
came across an interesting side note on that 89 eMPG number; embedded somewhere in the EPA formula is a factor, correction, ??, which takes the source of the power and its pollution quotient or some such nonsense into account. So who knows whether it reflects actual on-the-road experience you can expect.
 
+1 rcc! You hit the nail on the head!

After having my S for 2 weeks, it blows the doors off of any car I've either owned or driven previously. Luxury, speed, smoothness, space, responsiveness. Nothing compares.
I think he implies that the MS might well be in 2nd place on all of them -- but it's on ALL of them, which no other car can match. They all sacrifice some to focus on one or two.
 
I was originially looking for a car in the 50-60k price point and when I came upon the Tesla Model S I was sold for the exact reasons that rcc stated. I felt the compromises that I had to make to own a Merc E class or BMW 5 series were greater then the compromises for the Model S. I wanted comfort, performance, room, and practicality as my primary considering factors. With the E and 5 the compromise was price. To get the performance of the standard Model S in the BMW or Merc I had to get an AMG or M series but then gas mileage went out the window (plus I would have yet another car that required premium fuel) which ultimately raises the overall cost of the car. From a practicality standpoint, I had to pay a significant price premium to get into those cars with no additional benefit. I just couldn't justify the BMW and Merc price for what I was getting (which most of the features are available in a loaded Camary/Accord). Compare this to the Model S which gives me cool technology that you can't find on any other car plus the Supercharging.

Ultimately, the Model S made for an easy proposition to pay above my original price-point to essentially make no compromises. Cool tech, no gas, space, luxury, and performance. This was all before I actually drove one! Once I had an oppotunity to drive one it was a serious no-brainer for me.

FWIW - I have tried HARD to find another car that excites me as much as the model S and I just can't find one.
 
I was originially looking for a car in the 50-60k price point and when I came upon the Tesla Model S I was sold for the exact reasons that rcc stated. I felt the compromises that I had to make to own a Merc E class or BMW 5 series were greater then the compromises for the Model S. I wanted comfort, performance, room, and practicality as my primary considering factors. With the E and 5 the compromise was price. To get the performance of the standard Model S in the BMW or Merc I had to get an AMG or M series but then gas mileage went out the window (plus I would have yet another car that required premium fuel) which ultimately raises the overall cost of the car. From a practicality standpoint, I had to pay a significant price premium to get into those cars with no additional benefit. I just couldn't justify the BMW and Merc price for what I was getting (which most of the features are available in a loaded Camary/Accord). Compare this to the Model S which gives me cool technology that you can't find on any other car plus the Supercharging.

Ultimately, the Model S made for an easy proposition to pay above my original price-point to essentially make no compromises. Cool tech, no gas, space, luxury, and performance. This was all before I actually drove one! Once I had an oppotunity to drive one it was a serious no-brainer for me.

FWIW - I have tried HARD to find another car that excites me as much as the model S and I just can't find one.

+1. that's pretty much how i too ended up with the S. drove the merc E cabriolet but just too many sacrifices for me - lack of space, lack of tech but drives great. i wanted a car that is the most advanced car and was really sold when i saw a video of elon talking about how the car will know when you're at work and cool down for your expected arrival. while that might be in the future (or might not) it's still the most advanced car out there.

they need to avoid battery failures or fogging issues that would sink the ship though. people who spend 60k-100k+ aren't going to tolerate cars that fail or are undrivable in certain weather conditions.
 
setritt;
I don't think anyone should refer to fogging until they've gone the Windex + well-wiped-off RainX route. Clouds and fog both like/need 'condensation nuclei'.

The product "Invisible Glass" likely achieves the same thing. Etc.
 
I was going to buy an M5. My friend asked me to look at a Fisker once he realized how much money I was willing to spend. I was impressed that EVs / hybrids had moved as far along as they had; nonetheless, I wasn't excited by the Fisker (too slow but I did like the solar panels). Intrigued that I might have missed out on the new hotness, I started researching electric cars and found the Model S and this forum. I lurked for months and finally put my money down. I test drove one in DC and that was that.
 
.......
8) Feature catchup is at the earliest stages. Updates (and hardware retrofits which have been suggested and/or promised) have just begun. When that "due bill" is worked through, new features will begin to be added. "The Model S you take delivery of today is the worst it will ever be." What other car can make such a claim.

......
Articles like this are good but they also make the assumption that everyone at the company are planning the status quo for the next year. Like GB and his team have NOTHING new planned.

Great points. Tesla didn't get where they are today without great effort and vision. So why would anyone not expect that to continue!!
 
Wasn't in the market for a new car when I stumbled across the Model S a few months ago. I have a Honda CR-V as a basic daily driver and a Mazdaspeed Miata as my toy car for when the weather is nice (in addition to the wife's Odyssey family hauler). All paid for, all relatively new, all in perfectly good condition.

Found Model S when reading an article on the newly introduced Superchargers on Engadget (which should instantly mark me as a tech enthusiast / early adopter). Was intrigued. Started reading up on the TM site. Got more intrigued. Got to the part of the site with the electricity vs gas calculators. Was absolutely shocked when I plugged in the numbers and realized that it is costing me $10 a day in gas just to drive to work and back (vs $1.53 in electricity). That got my attention fast... then I pulled up mint.com to do a quick search on gas expenditures.

Had never given any thought at all to how much my wife and I spend on gas in a year since it's a basic need if we plan on getting around. I was floored at how much we had spent. That was the initial "light bulb moment" that made me think that there may be something to an electric car. Further reading about the pre-paid service, the Ranger program, the battery range, and the general features and amenities of the car really got me hooked.

Fast forward a few months and I have reservation 13,040, took an incredible test drive, have inhaled every bit of info about the MS I can find, and am damn near addicted to these forums. I've never owned a luxury car in my life and if you'd asked me six months ago if I would be plopping down near $100,000 on a car soon I'd have laughed in your face. Yet here we are.

Point being, I believe Model S is something special. It's not just another car, and based on the conversations I've had with people about it I think many others feel the same way. Tesla has created something world-changing that can be driven just like any other car. My wife hates complicated early adopter tech, but I think she will have no problem driving an S. And an army of early adopter enthusiasts spreading the message is going to help a lot (a la iPod, iPhone, iPad, etc.).

YMMV, of course, but that's my story.
 
The real question is the long-term viability of ICE's. I think they're dead in the long term, and the only question is not if but when. I've been in Los Angeles for the past three days, where the presence of high-end ICE's is about as good as it gets. I drove by the Ferrari and Lamborghini showrooms a few times and on the road the number of BMWs and Audis is countless. As much as I love and admire these cars, I kept getting the sinking feeling that their breeds are are not long for this world. It might be like how forward-thinking people riding horses felt when the first Model T's appeared. They probably recognized that the old ways were going to die.

Sure, these cars will remain. But they will become oddities of a kind -- collectors items to be admired as the pinnacle of a day gone by. The Model S is the future, ICE's are the past.
 
I was going to buy an M5. My friend asked me to look at a Fisker once he realized how much money I was willing to spend.

I found the Fisker first before it was in production and initially thought it was really cool - until I saw the price. I can't remember exactly how I found the Model S, but it really puts the Fisker Karma to shame in every aspect. The performance really sold me on the Model S too. Once I started seeing all the problems with the Fisker Karma - especially the notable spontaneous combustion issue - that basically locked in my decision to the Model S.

I'm assuming you've seen the same reports about the Karma fires? http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2012/12/27/Famous-for-Catching-Fire-Fisker-Karma-7712250/ Man I would be really pissed if I woke up and went outside in the morning and my $120,000 Fisker Karma was a pile of ashes - lol. What a crock of junk that thing is. Who would make a car that basically randomly blows itself up? That company will fold by the end of this year. Tesla on the other hand is the wave of the future. Can't wait to get my Model S!

If you have a million dollars laying around that you're itching to spend, this electric car looks kinda cool too - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57505851/worlds-first-million-dollar-electric-supercar/
 
This thread nails the magic of the car and speaks to why all the production numbers mentioned MAY NOT even apply.

At NO TIME in my fifty years have I seen those with McLaren experience come together with Prius owners and agree on spending $50K to $100K on a car. That simply does not ever happen and yet it has happened. Dogs sleeping with cats. Socker moms driving rocket ships.

Someone in another thread was talking about gaging people's interest by describing the Model S (focus group stuff I think). His/her comment was it would be like asking pre-IPhone uses how they felt about a phone with five buttons and a big piece of glass. You'll never get a close to correct response because people can not make that leap.

The rest of the world will learn about this car and most all of them are between a CRV, Prius and McLaren. I think a lot of them will come to the same conclusion as those on this thread. Sure, most will not fork over fifty to a hundred but the base to work from is much broader than MB or BMW has access to. This just MIGHT be a game changer in a whole different way.
 
That's right. What percentage of Model S sales are expected to be in the US? I'd expect it to be at least 50%. For the Model X I'd expect it to be higher; let's say 70%. That means 10k Model S units and 14k Model X units, for a total of 24k units annually in the US. In context, that's 25% of BMW's non 1-,3-, and 5-series sales in the US in 2011.

I think the key for Tesla will be to convert otherwise-non-luxury-car shoppers. On the "con" side for Tesla, at $50k -$100k, these cars are very high consideration purchases.


Hardly a statistically significant sample, but I am an example of Tesla converting an otherwise non-luxury-car shopper into a luxury car shopper. In fact, Tesla has also brought me into the market period. If Tesla or something equivalent didn't exist, I'd be getting along fine with my 20 year old Honda CRX. In the event that I went looking for a new car, I'd be looking in the sub-$20k bracket, for the simple reason that outside of Tesla, cars are devices that get me from A to B, and I am largely indifferent beyond that.

For one exception (Model X - maybe a Roadster), that all changes.

From comments I've seen made by others, I know that I'm not alone - many buyers and drivers of Model S are people who aren't otherwise in the market for a $80k+ car.

- - - Updated - - -

A number of points;

2) The market segment appeal is much wider than the traditional luxury market; many current buyers are spending up to 5X more on the Model S than they have ever spent on a car before. It is a "paradigm breaker", IOW.

Again, hardly a statistically significant sample; in my case, I think the most we've ever spent on a car was around $12k. I expect the loaded Signature Model X to be at least $100k and maybe more like $120k. That's more like 8x or 10x.

My real point here is to support the 5x number Brian's thrown out. As he says, the cars are paradigm breakers - they certainly have been for me.
 
Leaf sales dried up once the early adaptors purchased their cars... sales dropped. Same with Volt. Sales picked up with great lease offers, recently. We are talking apples and oranges (I know) on cars. I think Nissan is finally smelling the coffee. They did very little, early on, to snuggle up to the early customers (unlike TM) as they don't have a clue on social marketing. Plus, the deployment of fast chargers have been very slow. The key, IMHO, is to quickly deploy the super charging network and crank on TM's roadmap to lower the cost of pure EV models. Fanatical customer support is a must. The 60KW battery should be able to drive sales once the early demand for 85KW have been filled. Gen III is so important. The BMW i3 (with range extender) could become very popular, along with Volt 2.0 and Cadillac ELR.
 
I'm assuming you've seen the same reports about the Karma fires? http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2012/12/27/Famous-for-Catching-Fire-Fisker-Karma-7712250/ Man I would be really pissed if I woke up and went outside in the morning and my $120,000 Fisker Karma was a pile of ashes - lol. What a crock of junk that thing is. Who would make a car that basically randomly blows itself up? That company will fold by the end of this year.

You are welcome to be a hater if you like, but rather than perpetuate exaggerations, it would be helpful to get the facts. There were two Karmas that caught fire, one in Texas and the other in Woodside CA. The cause of the second fire was determined to be a cooling fan that overheated the electrical wire because of a design flaw. The company initiated an immediate recall and replaced all of the fans with an upgraded one from their supplier. The cause of the Texas fire could not be definitely determined but was suspected to be the same. In both cases the EV components were determined to not be the cause of the fires.

The cause of the fire that damaged the 16 Karmas in NJ during Hurricane Sandy was determined to be a short in a 12V control module caused by the saltwater that combusted that car and then spread to the adjacent Karmas. That module is used in many ICE cars and has nothing to do with the EV portion of the Karma drivetrain.

I've had my Karma for a year and have driven it 8500 miles. While Fisker had a lot of glitches in the early cars and a manufacturing defect in the A123-supplied battery, they have been extremely responsive with their service, supplying numerous software updates and replacing any batteries that show signs of deterioration, including mine. The Karma is my daily driver and is very reliable. And the current owners as represented by the participants on the FiskerBuzz forum are very satisfied with their cars - check out the owner satisfaction poll here.

I also own a Model S that is intended to be my wife's daily driver once the aftermarket parking sensors are installed and we get the 4.1 software. As you know, the Model S is having its share of early issues and Tesla is doing a great job of responding, just like Fisker did earlier this year. With 186,000 car fires in the US each year, at some point a Model S is going to be involved in such a fire, and Jalopnik will be posting the pictures. There are enough EV haters out there already, so lets all stick together in supporting the pioneering companies by dealing with the facts.
 
Leaf sales dried up once the early adaptors purchased their cars... sales dropped. Same with Volt.

In my opinion, this is not surprising. An EV with no range will only have a certain amount of potential customers--regardless of the amount of hype, and a hybrid still has the complex gas engine.
 
I'm helping with Tesla's long term viability!! Just placed this order this morning for my pops!!
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