Polar/BPChargemaster another price rise

[pdk42]

At 47p/kWh, it's about the same price per mile as petrol. Assume 3.5 miles/kWh consumption, this makes it 13.5p /mile. Petrol is currently about 115p/litre, or 575p/gallon. At 40mpg, that's about 14p/mile. Considering that about 75% of the petrol price goes to the government that does point to a very healthy markup on these chargers. Initial investment payback is a part of it for sure, but I suspect this pricing reflects a lack of competition and demand as much as anything.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

I strongly suspect that the prices for rapid charging are being set on the basis of normal supply and demand, together with a factor to allow for the fact that EVs are significantly more expensive than ICE cars, so their owners can afford to be fleeced. This seems to be the logic that applies to charge points and charge point installations.

For example, buying everything needed to make a UK regs compliant charge point, with DC tolerant RCD protection and open PEN protection, cost me about £350 for the parts (retail prices including VAT), with a good quality 6m cable and Type 2 connector complete with the "Tesla button", (details here: DIY charge point). In production volumes I'd expect the parts cost to be significantly less, perhaps around £250. Given that all charge points have similar internal components, that suggests that some charge point manufacturers have priced their products with a very hefty markup, given that some retail for well over £1k, just for the unit, before any installation costs are added.

The providers of rapid charging services will have noted that EVs like the Tesla range, the iPace, eTron, Taycan, Polestar etc are all selling very well, for prices north of £50k, and may well have concluded that if people are prepared to pay that much money for an EV, then they can afford to pay top dollar to charge it. Until such time as there's enough demand to force competition in the rapid charging market, I suspect this situation may well continue. After all, if someone's changing from an ICE car with a similar spec and perhaps somewhat poorer performance to a £50k plus EV, they are probably well used to paying in excess of 15p/mile for fuel. In the logic of those providing rapid charger services, it may well seem as if there is no good reason for them to sell electricity below the equivalent cost of petrol per mile.

 

[R5scott]

There are two new 150kw chargers waiting to be unwrapped at the Beckington services just off the A36 in somerset. I’m dropping in every time I pass to check whether they have been switched on. Looking forward to two weeks of free vend there before never using them again!

 

[NewbieT]

The other angle is public chargers don’t get used very often as most charging is at home. Let’s be honest we’re not at a stage where cars queue for charging (ignoring Northampton and Keele SB SuCs).

Let’s say a DC charge point costs £5k per year to finance, install, maintain, operate (total cost of ownership) and gets used four times a week. A charge point operator would have to charge nearly £25 per transaction to break even. If they lose £500 per charge point every year for the next 5 years they won’t have much of a business left.

A 50kW charger costs £22k buy. ABB Terra 54 DC - 50kW fast charging station - #1 choice in Europe

ABB Terra HPC fast charging station - output from 175kW to 350kW - #1 choice in Europe

Lasts 10 years? (Ecotricity started charge points in 2011 and most of those early ones are now being replaced.) Without financing costs, on a straight line that’s £2.2k per year straight off.

Cost of install, cabling /grid connect. You’ll want to recover that over the term of your lease/license -20 years?

Local transformer, earth works and grid connect £50k.

Electrical testing/maintenance, repairs, staff, wholesale electricity, ground rent, financing, advertising, insurance, professional fees etc etc etc.

These are businesses that are trying to break even at this point to gain and maintain market share. Ecotricity proved that not charging enough per kWh isn’t a viable business model. Unless there’s loads of angel investors looking to burn cash just to gain market share (I don’t think so) we’re probably going to see more of this until there are more EVs and charge points get used more often.

I do agree it’s ‘convenient’ to set a high tariff now because you manipulate market expectations, but it’ll be interesting to see where prices are in 5 yrs.

I don’t like paying 40p+/kWh when I can charge at home for 5p/kWh. The installations do have to pay for themselves though. A convenience service does attract a premium (the alternative a 7h stop-over with a granny cable).

Stubbed across this.. makes a useful read too https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d...esources/deloitte-uk-Electric-Vehicles-uk.pdf
and this
https://www.pwc.co.uk/power-utilities/assets/powering-ahead-ev-charging-infrastructure.pdf
P27 suggesting rate of return 10-20%. That’s a lot but it’s not ridiculous profiteering.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...cle-charging-device-statistics-april-2020.pdf

North of England and Wales definitely look charger poor.

 

[NewbieT]

Sorry I had to stop before it got too long. Hopefully I made my point, even if you don’t agree.

 

[Js1977]

The other angle is public chargers don’t get used very often as most charging is at home. Let’s be honest we’re not at a stage where cars queue for charging (ignoring Northampton and Keele SB SuCs).

Let’s say a DC charge point costs £5k per year to finance, install, maintain, operate (total cost of ownership) and gets used four times a week. A charge point operator would have to charge nearly £25 per transaction to break even. If they lose £500 per charge point every year for the next 5 years they won’t have much of a business left.

A 50kW charger costs £22k buy. ABB Terra 54 DC - 50kW fast charging station - #1 choice in Europe

ABB Terra HPC fast charging station - output from 175kW to 350kW - #1 choice in Europe

Lasts 10 years? (Ecotricity started charge points in 2011 and most of those early ones are now being replaced.) Without financing costs, on a straight line that’s £2.2k per year straight off.

Cost of install, cabling /grid connect. You’ll want to recover that over the term of your lease/license -20 years?

Local transformer, earth works and grid connect £50k.

Electrical testing/maintenance, repairs, staff, wholesale electricity, ground rent, financing, advertising, insurance, professional fees etc etc etc.

These are businesses that are trying to break even at this point to gain and maintain market share. Ecotricity proved that not charging enough per kWh isn’t a viable business model. Unless there’s loads of angel investors looking to burn cash just to gain market share (I don’t think so) we’re probably going to see more of this until there are more EVs and charge points get used more often.

I do agree it’s ‘convenient’ to set a high tariff now because you manipulate market expectations, but it’ll be interesting to see where prices are in 5 yrs.

I don’t like paying 40p+/kWh when I can charge at home for 5p/kWh. The installations do have to pay for themselves though. A convenience service does attract a premium (the alternative a 7h stop-over with a granny cable).

Stubbed across this.. makes a useful read too https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d...esources/deloitte-uk-Electric-Vehicles-uk.pdf
and this
https://www.pwc.co.uk/power-utilities/assets/powering-ahead-ev-charging-infrastructure.pdf
P27 suggesting rate of return 10-20%. That’s a lot but it’s not ridiculous profiteering.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...cle-charging-device-statistics-april-2020.pdf

North of England and Wales definitely look charger poor.

It was a good read, honest. However, its all IMHO null and void when you look at Teslas supercharger network.

I put forward that these charge points where merely a strategy. The mainstream car manufacturers where thinking's into space and Tesla was getting there... And now many strategic spots have been taken and mainstream manufacturers in their laziness/denial did not see what was happening and now have to make deals with the man in the middle and that never works out for us...man in the middle eventually gets bought out and better deals will happen or maybe not.

Good night

 

[Glan gluaisne]

The most strategic charger spots are presently occupied by the Ecotricity useless articles, though. Quite why they haven't been kicked off the motorway network I don't know. Motorway services have to be a prime spot for a decent rapid charger network.

 

[NewbieT]

I wish they were all like Tesla!

Albeit Tesla do have a few advantages. They
a) have the capital; ($TSLA !) b) the vision; c) are in it for the long game and happy to take returns ‘later’;

Does anyone know if or how much Tesla cars sales are pumped into the SuC network?

 

[pdk42]

The other angle is public chargers don’t get used very often as most charging is at home. Let’s be honest we’re not at a stage where cars queue for charging (ignoring Northampton and Keele SB SuCs).

Let’s say a DC charge point costs £5k per year to finance, install, maintain, operate (total cost of ownership) and gets used four times a week. A charge point operator would have to charge nearly £25 per transaction to break even. If they lose £500 per charge point every year for the next 5 years they won’t have much of a business left.

A 50kW charger costs £22k buy. ABB Terra 54 DC - 50kW fast charging station - #1 choice in Europe

ABB Terra HPC fast charging station - output from 175kW to 350kW - #1 choice in Europe

Lasts 10 years? (Ecotricity started charge points in 2011 and most of those early ones are now being replaced.) Without financing costs, on a straight line that’s £2.2k per year straight off.

Cost of install, cabling /grid connect. You’ll want to recover that over the term of your lease/license -20 years?

Local transformer, earth works and grid connect £50k.

Electrical testing/maintenance, repairs, staff, wholesale electricity, ground rent, financing, advertising, insurance, professional fees etc etc etc.

These are businesses that are trying to break even at this point to gain and maintain market share. Ecotricity proved that not charging enough per kWh isn’t a viable business model. Unless there’s loads of angel investors looking to burn cash just to gain market share (I don’t think so) we’re probably going to see more of this until there are more EVs and charge points get used more often.

I do agree it’s ‘convenient’ to set a high tariff now because you manipulate market expectations, but it’ll be interesting to see where prices are in 5 yrs.

I don’t like paying 40p+/kWh when I can charge at home for 5p/kWh. The installations do have to pay for themselves though. A convenience service does attract a premium (the alternative a 7h stop-over with a granny cable).

Stubbed across this.. makes a useful read too https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d...esources/deloitte-uk-Electric-Vehicles-uk.pdf
and this
https://www.pwc.co.uk/power-utilities/assets/powering-ahead-ev-charging-infrastructure.pdf
P27 suggesting rate of return 10-20%. That’s a lot but it’s not ridiculous profiteering.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...cle-charging-device-statistics-april-2020.pdf

North of England and Wales definitely look charger poor.

Thanks for this. Puts it into perspective. I guess the truth is that the traditional fossil fuel distribution model has the benefit of scale and sunk investment so the challenges are completely different. It just goes to show that to make a difference quickly you need either a national government-led investment, or else a focussed push by someone with real skin the game like Tesla. It's a pity that the rest of the car manufacturers don't team up and get real about it. I know that Ionity uses that model, but the roll out is painfully slow - esp in the UK.

 

[pdk42]

I strongly suspect that the prices for rapid charging are being set on the basis of normal supply and demand, together with a factor to allow for the fact that EVs are significantly more expensive than ICE cars, so their owners can afford to be fleeced. This seems to be the logic that applies to charge points and charge point installations.

For example, buying everything needed to make a UK regs compliant charge point, with DC tolerant RCD protection and open PEN protection, cost me about £350 for the parts (retail prices including VAT), with a good quality 6m cable and Type 2 connector complete with the "Tesla button", (details here: DIY charge point). In production volumes I'd expect the parts cost to be significantly less, perhaps around £250. Given that all charge points have similar internal components, that suggests that some charge point manufacturers have priced their products with a very hefty markup, given that some retail for well over £1k, just for the unit, before any installation costs are added.

The providers of rapid charging services will have noted that EVs like the Tesla range, the iPace, eTron, Taycan, Polestar etc are all selling very well, for prices north of £50k, and may well have concluded that if people are prepared to pay that much money for an EV, then they can afford to pay top dollar to charge it. Until such time as there's enough demand to force competition in the rapid charging market, I suspect this situation may well continue. After all, if someone's changing from an ICE car with a similar spec and perhaps somewhat poorer performance to a £50k plus EV, they are probably well used to paying in excess of 15p/mile for fuel. In the logic of those providing rapid charger services, it may well seem as if there is no good reason for them to sell electricity below the equivalent cost of petrol per mile.

Interesting that you mentioned EVSEs. I'm thinking of buying an OpenEVSE box since the EVBox unit I have is dumb, huge, and untethered (long story as to why I have it which I won't go into now). However, with a tethered cable it's coming in at over £500 which seems a bit on the high side. I'd be interested to know if anyone has used one with the Model 3 and if there are any gotchas on the compatibility.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Be interesting to know what petrol cost back before there was a filling station network, and when motorists had to buy petrol in cans from the local chemist. I would hazard a guess that it was very expensive, in relative terms. We're probably at a similar stage with regard to rapid charging.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Interesting that you mentioned EVSEs. I'm thinking of buying an OpenEVSE box since the EVBox unit I have is dumb, huge, and untethered (long story as to why I have it which I won't go into now). However, with a tethered cable it's coming in at over £500 which seems a bit on the high side. I'd be interested to know if anyone has used one with the Model 3 and if there are any gotchas on the compatibility.

Any IEC61851/J1772 compatible EVSE will work fine with the Model 3. My car has been charging since I got it with a home made charge point that I made years ago, that uses a PIC microcontroller to generate the Control Pilot and sense the loading on it. The Open EVSE will work without any problem at all, I think the only issue with it is that I don't think it has either DC tolerant RCD protection or open PEN protection. The one I've recently built, using the latest Virdian EVSE module, has both open PEN and DC tolerant RCD protection, as it's built in the the new Viridian module.

 

[NewbieT]

The cost of high powered chargers has to come down if the Gov want people to switch.

Petrol currently about 114p/l of which fuel duty is 57.9p/l and 20% VAT

If you add that sort of tax to chargers nobody will go electric. As more people do switch the chancellor’s facing a funding shortfall (road fund and fuel duty) too. He can’t tax charge points because they’re already too expensive and the infrastructure doesn’t necessarily exist (and where do you draw the line). How long before we pay road tax by the mile, either as a car insurance tax or a black box.

 

[Adopado]

It's a pity that the rest of the car manufacturers don't team up and get real about it. I know that Ionity uses that model, but the roll out is painfully slow - esp in the UK.

If they are serious the legacy manufacturers are crazy if they don't get on with it ... perhaps along with negotiating government support .. after all it's governments that are now mandating the change to electric.

 

[Jason71]

I wish they were all like Tesla!

Albeit Tesla do have a few advantages. They
a) have the capital; ($TSLA !) b) the vision; c) are in it for the long game and happy to take returns ‘later’;

Does anyone know if or how much Tesla cars sales are pumped into the SuC network?

until recently most of the cars had free supercharging so its not even a question as to whether the cars are subsidising the SuC network. And I am sure Elon has said the SuC network is not designed to be profitable in its own right as things stand.
Having said that I have never seen any other charge network used even half as much as your average motorway SuC installation so I imagine some of the sites probably make money when loaded up with M3's but I very much doubt the expansion is self financing but you only have to look at the proportion of Tesla drivers who call it as a major factor in their decision to buy a Tesla to see that its worth it whatever its costing.

 

[Jason71]

Thanks for this. Puts it into perspective. I guess the truth is that the traditional fossil fuel distribution model has the benefit of scale and sunk investment so the challenges are completely different. It just goes to show that to make a difference quickly you need either a national government-led investment, or else a focussed push by someone with real skin the game like Tesla. It's a pity that the rest of the car manufacturers don't team up and get real about it. I know that Ionity uses that model, but the roll out is painfully slow - esp in the UK.

and painfully overpriced. I doubt many people are including in their reasons for buying an ID3 the option to pay £14 a month to charge at 25p/kw

 

[roadcred]

Be interesting to know what petrol cost back before there was a filling station network, and when motorists had to buy petrol in cans from the local chemist. I would hazard a guess that it was very expensive, in relative terms. We're probably at a similar stage with regard to rapid charging.

dont go that far back but i remember buying 5 gallons for £1 about the same time as i could buy 9 pts beer for £0.50 (10 shillings). i think i earned about £10 per week at the time.

 

[pdk42]

dont go that far back but i remember buying 5 gallons for £1 about the same time as i could buy 9 pts beer for £0.50 (10 shillings). i think i earned about £10 per week at the time.

So 18 beers to 5 gallons of petrol. Given that petrol is about £5.50 a gallon now, it makes it cheap. Even the cheapest beer would set you back a coupe of quid.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Tesla were charging something like £2k per car for supercharger access that got bundled into the car price. Tesla are also putting up their prices albeit it not as much.

But whats the real issue? Use them if you need them, if you need them its better if they're priced so only those that really need them use them so they're more likely to be free, and ignore them if you don't.

 

[HenryT]

I think it's a bit like the 'emergency' petrol price you pay at motorway services too. You would only buy enough to get you to the nearest cheaper alternative if you had the time, or were as tight as me.