Politics proposal

[brianman]

Me neither. In a 'police state' there wouldn't even be a discussion about a police state.

Technically there would be, but it would be underground and such. And then people might die, etc.

Anyway, again, sorry for the overcharged term. I'll try to find a better one.

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Especially since I actually can’t remember when I last posted anything about Man Made Climate Change outside of the Energy, Environment, and Policy sub-forum (or had a post moved to he Climate Change / Global Warming-thread. I’m actually unsure if that has even ever happened at all…)

Four days ago:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27356-Did-I-really-just-order-a-car-Going-to-take-the-two-weeks-to-confirm/page3?p=577419#post577419

But we digress.

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Since apparently I was unclear and/or chose poor terminology...

We're not perfect but we're doing our best and, even if I say so myself, I think 147 out of 572,424 isn't excessive.

This thread was not, and is not, intended as a dig at the moderators. It was a recommendation for a change of approach regarding political discussion. While at times I disagree with some particular choices, generally I'm impressed and appreciative of the PITA role the moderators deal with admirably.

If I stated/hinted/suggested otherwise, I must have been distracted (I'm watching the olympics while catching up on the forums). That was not my intent.

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Not sure what you mean there. So you'd pick a different term for the moderation on this forum but in concept it is like a police state?

Sigh.

What I meant is something more general. Once people are in charge of keeping others in line, it's often difficult to see anything but people that need managing. It's kind of like a parent that has a child that is constantly misbehaving. Some parents have trouble ever letting the child make his/her own mistakes and fully leave the nest.

 

[NigelM]

This thread was not, and is not, intended as a dig at the moderators. It was a recommendation for a change of approach regarding political discussion.

No offence taken here, I understood that. What I was trying to get across was that the quarantining of political posts is really minuscule in number and actually anything involving Tesla or EVs is normally left in place.

 

[SeminoleFSU]

There are folks that love to swap political quips, and folks that find any political remarks very off-putting. As one who loves the political stuff, I think that all too often, those who dislike politics have all the say within forums. I would enjoy a politics thread very much. I think there's a line that can be drawn in moderating such a forum, and it's a line I'd call "personal attack." I think the quarantine should be for any personal attacks, be they political or otherwise. I find it interesting that a person can be mocked openly for a slip in their use of grammar, but the moment someone mentions the media, etc., they're sent to Siberia. I think a political forum could be successful ONLY as long as it is moderated by political junkies. Sorry, but the fact is that Tesla and EVs are VERY political, especially in the U.S., and there needs to be some way to discuss this fact without getting shut down at every turn.

Amen

 

[SeminoleFSU]

History shows what happens when dialog is restricted... It's much nastier than when it isn't. The powers at be (crooks on both sides of the isle) that are robbing us and future generations would like nothing more than for every subject that involved their ransacking to become off limits. Much easier to get away with it that way. We need a political sub forum so people can discuss, debate, and yes argue the intersection of EV's and politics... Especially considering that with each passing moment, more and more topics seem to be falling under the category of "politics"... which is by design, IMO. *sigh*
And let people argue- you call me any name you want, as long as you aren't physically threatening me or making false accusations that could hurt me in some way- I say fair game... and I will defend your right to call me any name you want... Including FED conspiracy nutjob, and all the rest... :tongue: Free speech isn't always pretty. But in order to solve problems, a dialog/discussion/debate must take place. In the long run, we're shooting ourselves in the foot every time we censor each other... Just my $.02

I'll admit that allowing those discussions to take place would probably make the mod's jobs more difficult... and I do know their roles are voluntary- so I can empathize with you guys/gals. Perhaps like the OP said, if we had some forums/sub-forums for this dialog to go into, it wouldn't be as hard to "police." Wait, can I say police? Hope I didn't offend anybody.. hahaha

 

[birdsaresmarter]

I really do feel for the mods on this site.

The unique thing about TMC is of course generally what is unique about the company; the diverse interests that are not just attracted to both, but PASSIONATELY attracted. I think regarding most car brands and associated enthusiast forums, the interests are much narrower, generally pertaining to performance and style of the particular car brand or model. In this case, yes, you have that. However, you also have people who care much less about those factors (or even not at all) and care more about how the company and the product fit into their belief systems regarding environment, or people who are really into the technology/science and less into the rest. So often, these diverse interest groups can be very offended by each other's views/beliefs/motivations. I just don't think you have that same kind of diversity at other "car sites". Case in point...remember last year when TM did the joint marketing with the jeans company (can't remember the name of it...LOL). Anyway, some were really offended and even THAT resulted in a bunch of name calling by others who just didn't get why it offended anybody else.

I don't pretend to know what is the right thing to do here though. Why did I post this? Not sure. Somebody else probably already said it 10 times in other threads. Maybe just an expression of empathy or at least sympathy.

I also wish people could just express their view without always having to try to have the last word or immediately convince those with opposing views that they are wrong/right, and, when they cannot immediately change somebody's mind they start attacking them. I agree forums should be about sharing thoughts and let the others think about it and have their own opinions.

All that said, I honestly have no faith in most people's willingness to challenge themselves to rise above pettiness. It's a hard thing to do and I think it goes against basic human nature. It's why I usually do not post on any forums (I usually find it a big waste of time) and it is a testament to the passionate support of TM that I ever posted on this one.

 

[SeminoleFSU]

We may have far less control of our own thoughts and choices in politics then we think we do:

Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives - YouTube

The Surprising Brain Differences Between Democrats and Republicans | Mother Jones

There seems to be mounting evidence of biological differences between conservatives and liberals. Politics is definitely opinion-based, but I don't think we actually have much control over our opinions. The study in that TED talk that talks about different moral values per country seems pretty compelling to me.

Anyway, I am kind of disinterested in politics. I think evidence-based reasoning has trumped both liberal and conservative ideologies. While it's not possible to make everything into a science, I think we should take a science-like approach to everything from economics, environmental protection, fiscal management, social welfare, infrastructure management, etc. We are really, really deep into the woods of this bizarro land where evidence doesn't matter. That is something I seek to change.

Very interesting- I can't wait to look at these two... I wonder what that says about people like me who grew up under a "right" roof, then morphed to almost a "D" (in college), then started working and being taxed and became an "R" again... then became heavily involved working on some campaigns and realized they're all crooks, and turned into more of an "L".... and finally ended up somewhere closer to a minarchist/voluntarist.... which believes, well nevermind- I don't want to offend anybody.
And I wholeheartedly agree with you about moving away from opinion-based to scientifically measured and driven..... not enough of that today. Good luck finding studies that are impartial though... that's the problem.

 

[NigelM]

....in order to solve problems, a dialog/discussion/debate must take place. In the long run, we're shooting ourselves in the foot every time we censor each other...

Just note that TMC is a forum for Tesla Motors (and EV) enthusiasts. I'm not sure why you really want to discuss (e.g.) ending the Fed on this forum? There's plenty of political forums covering that subject where you won't get sidelined.

(P.S. We're happy to have you discussing Tesla/EVs here, there's no implication that you should go elsewhere...except maybe for the political stuff.:wink

 

[SeminoleFSU]

Just note that TMC is a forum for Tesla Motors (and EV) enthusiasts. I'm not sure why you really want to discuss (e.g.) ending the Fed on this forum? There's plenty of political forums covering that subject where you won't get sidelined.

(P.S. We're happy to have you discussing Tesla/EVs here, there's no implication that you should go elsewhere...except maybe for the political stuff.:wink

Nigel, I can appreciate that- my point is that with the ever broadening definition of what's considered "political" in nature, and the fact that EVs and government/politics do have a pretty (unfortunately) tight relationship, it may make sense to have some sub forums where people can talk about that stuff... outside of the energy area. If those areas already exist on TMC, I apologize for missing them..
PS. Your blog on going off the grid is bada$$

 

[NigelM]

PS. Your blog on going off the grid is bada$$

Thank you. I have been delayed implementing the next step by all the rain we had in December and January. There'll be another installment coming in a week or two.

 

[gnelson]

I had several friends from the Corvette Forum. I met many in person at Corvette events. After many threads in the off-topic section for politics were pointed many people became alienated.

We all have a common interest and can enjoy mutual communications without having to become disagreeable in a politics subforum.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

…/ (Sorry to pick on him but...) As an example, I for one am glad we have the Climate thread so that we have somewhere to move 90% of Swedish's posts to. (And yes, 90% is an exaggeration but man I get tired of seeing the topic EVERYWHERE and then seeing banishments-due-to-politics happening within 5 posts regularly.) I'm also glad we have the Unions thread for similar reasons. /…

Those are some kind words :wink:

Especially since I actually can’t remember when I last posted anything about Man Made Climate Change outside of the Energy, Environment, and Policy sub-forum (or had a post moved to he Climate Change / Global Warming-thread. I’m actually unsure if that has even ever happened at all…)

…/Four days ago:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27356-Did-I-really-just-order-a-car-Going-to-take-the-two-weeks-to-confirm/page3?p=577419#post577419

But we digress. /…

It seems to me that what we have here, is a case where:

1. You don’t agree with the ~97% of the Planet’s best scientists in the field[SUP]1[/SUP] (And you also don’t agree with Elon).

2. You (therefore) seem to think that AGW is off-topic by default no matter what.


The OP in that thread later posted this:

…/ While I thought this thread would be a bunch of people pushing UP to the P or P+ I have to thank all of you who chimed in encouraging me to stick with the S85. /…/ Thanks again all. You made the P->S move much easier! [My underline.]

So it seems the thanks he expresses are also directed towards me…

Not everyone has been on TMC since July 2012 you know...



[SUP]1[/SUP]As of 1 August 2013 (Is there a scientific consensus on global warming? | SkepticalScience)

 

[bonnie]

I wanted moderator input. It's just interesting that it seems consistent in one direction across the moderators. It's both depressing and, unfortunately, unsurprising.

Do you recognize it's because we've been dealing with people unnecessarily escalating discussions and taking pot shots at each other? It's not because we want to stop political discussions. (I happen to wade into those gleefully irl.) It's because we have watched people again and again find it impossible to discuss the issues without getting angry with those who disagree with them.

Sorry, but your response makes it sound like we just don't want the discussion. That's not it. Your disappointment should not be directed at the moderators (imo), but in the forum itself and the inability to hold a civil discussion on a charged topic.

Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[brianman]

It seems to me that what we have here, is a case where:...
And now you're detouring yet another thread, or attempting to.

You said you don't recall injecting. I showed you an example. And now you inject here. I'm not clear how that counters my point or is a reasonable response.

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Sorry, but your response makes it sound like we just don't want the discussion. That's not it.

Then we have a different understanding of how it's been going lately.

With the notable exceptions of climate, unions, and tech busing, it really feels like even slight bends towards politics immediately go into quarantine.

Perhaps I'm alone in this perception.

Then again, it seems Nigel is saying something more in line with my perception:

(P.S. We're happy to have you discussing Tesla/EVs here, there's no implication that you should go elsewhere...except maybe for the political stuff.:wink

"But but, he has a smilie at the end"
Right, I read that as "I have no idea what that smilie means anymore so I just guess I'll ignore it." (It's like the trailing "LOL" that comes randomly these days.)

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

You said you don't recall injecting. I showed you an example. And now you inject here. I'm not clear how that counters my point or is a reasonable response. /...

It was meant to address the first post of yours that I quote. It was also meant to show that it in no way was OT.

 

[bonnie]

Mood: amused.

 

[brianman]

It was meant to address the first post of yours that I quote. I was also meant to show that it in no way was OT.

... and for the record, I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth:

1. You don’t agree with the ~97% of the Planet’s best scientists in the field[SUP]1[/SUP] (And you also don’t agree with Elon).

My original and remaining point about your climate injections "everywhere".... I said nothing about whether you were right, wrong, crazy, a prophet, a heretic, a genius, misguided, on target, or anything else. My issue is with the injection of the branch topic "willy nilly" not the content of the topic itself. I don't know how to make that point any clearer than I already have.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

... and for the record, I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth /…

Well, if you take in my entire post, then there is nothing for you to not “appreciate”:

It seems to me that what we have here, is a case where:

1. You don’t agree with the ~97% of the Planet’s best scientists in the field[SUP]1[/SUP] (And you also don’t agree with Elon). /…

[My underline.]

[3] My original and remaining point about your climate injections "everywhere".... [2] I said nothing about whether you were right, wrong, crazy, a prophet, a heretic, a genius, misguided, on target, or anything else. [1] My issue is with the injection of the branch topic "willy nilly" not the content of the topic itself. I don't know how to make that point any clearer than I already have.

1. You have given one example. And that example did not demonstrate how that particular “injection” was “willy nilly”.

2. Then why the objection in the first place?

3. Really?

 

[bonnie]

Here we are, over 50 posts later ... and accusations are being made and we're off topic. And this was just a thread about IF we could have a place for political discussions. It wasn't meant to BE a thread for contentious discussions.

Nice.

 

[dsm363]

Please, why don't we give this a rest. This is a perfect example if what we are talking about. Even a discussion about discussing politics turns heated.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

I’m not feeling heated. I’m feeling amused. :wink:


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But. I’m the one who got dragged into this. Am I expected to just sit down and watch from the side line?