Politics - Quarantine Thread

[jonquiljo]

Some here claim that Tesla is listed as an essential company but that is not what I heard from the California authorities. They want Tesla shut down. They don't care about the people, the factory workers, only how much power they can have over others.

They are not singling out Tesla. Fremont is in Alameda county right in the middle of the SF Bay area. If one county starts getting a lot of infections, then it will take all the other counties down in a domino-like effect. Santa Clara county (across the bay) was already growing in numbers. So the whole Bay area was shut down. Tesla did not get an exemption. No one did.

Monday I had my quarterly cardiology testing and consult. My doctor told me they are very busy, not with COVID-19 but heart attacks up 3 times before this COVID-19 hysteria began. Mostly from people who lost their jobs, and then suffer anxiety triggered heat attacks.

What your cardiologist didn't tell you is that COVID can have an unusual effect of causing clots to form in many people contracting it. As a result, lots of people are dying of heart attacks and strokes too. That's why heart attack frequency is up! They are usually COVID positive - when people bother to test them.

This is one mean MF virus! You don't have to be extremely high risk to die of it. This is not an issue of what individuals want to do ... but rather what is best for the common good. Anyone we know can be an asymptomatic carrier and spread this disease like wildfire. It is definitely not like the flu!

Many epidemiologists have come out saying that the states that are reopening are really playing with danger. Models show that this can easily cause a 2nd (and possibly 3rd) wave that will be larger than the first. No good can come of it.

 

[Msjulie]

Welcome to 1966. We claimed the earth could not support more people or we will all starve. <snip>

Global starvation was higher in '68 than today. We have far over twice as many people now, and still numerically fewer starvation deaths.

It's not just us that live on this planet. I get that with technology we can, for a time, squeeze more and more people on board but overpopulation is real. So is devastating over use and destruction of natural resources with no eye towards a future more than next week, a view which it seems is too common.

Earth Overshoot Day - Wikipedia

I'm disgusted with some comments about risking the older folks to get the economy back on track for our 'future' generations; how hypocritical!

We've been happy to screw over those same future generations with an insurmountable debt and blatant disregard for the environment and climate destruction. But no mention of that in these righteous protests! That's too inconvinient

Sorry too political I suppose.

 

[brur]

I see that opinions vary, I don't wish to continue. My highest hopes that everyone sees happen what they want. And all your worries evaporate.
That Musk not suffer fools nor torment.

 

[TravelFree]

Sounds like an amazing doctor in that he is able to determine a group of heart attacks were related to lost jobs. Wonder how he did that.

I think he is amazing as he figured out what caused my cardiac arrest 13 years ago and fixed it. Anyway, he interviews family and the patient to understand the patient's environment and lifestyle. You don't have to be an MD to learn from someone they lost their job and are afraid of suffering foreclosures, then measuring hypertension. Our county COVID-19 is quite low, but the population suffering from having lost their job and only income for now is a small stimulus check can weigh heavy, especially when the person worked for a small business that closed up permanently. If these pressures don't affect you because you don't live paycheck to paycheck and have debt and several kids to feed, you probably wouldn't understand.

I believe most Tesla owners don't understand the problems people are having because authorities will arrest them if they try to earn a living to feed their kids. Imagine you lost your money and your employer went out of business, Then the repo man comes to take your Tesla away and you have no money to buy food for your kids. Likely the stress will cause serious health issues that never see the statistics of COVID-19.

They are not singling out Tesla. Fremont is in Alameda county right in the middle of the SF Bay area. If one county starts getting a lot of infections, then it will take all the other counties down in a domino-like effect. Santa Clara county (across the bay) was already growing in numbers. So the whole Bay area was shut down. Tesla did not get an exemption. No one did.

I've only visited the region once two years ago. I trust you must know how your people spread disease than I do. Strange how we don't have that "domino effect" here in Florida by county. I'll just take your word for it. When I visited I could see how much filth in some areas could affect the area with disease. But considering these problems you have out there, I hope Elon Musk makes a serious effort to relocate Tesla manufacturing to a more business friendly and healthier region of the country. He should learn a lesson from this experience, because the next time it will be much worse. Any problem and the authorities will shut everything down again because they ignored the problems that fester when times are calm.

 

[TEG]

I wouldn't call the area around the Tesla factory "unhealthy". It is just in the middle of a big sprawl all around the SF bay area, so I think there are concerns for wide "community spread."

Is Jacksonville really doing OK since things are starting to open up there?

Jacksonville infectious disease expert: ‘I think we’re prematurely opening up the beaches’

 

[TEG]

Hmm:
NASA begs spectators for astronaut launch: Please stay home!
Comment:

According to the CEO of SpaceX, the Coronavirus is nothing to worry about and we should all get back to work.

 

[MakeUSGreat]

Here you go, use Fear to make your point, that’s is what is wrong with this country, look outside your window.
Stay away from CNN!

 

[TravelFree]

Is Jacksonville really doing OK since things are starting to open up there?

I'm sure it's too soon to tell but we were never really a hotspot and other than inside restaurants, theaters and two Malls shut down, most businesses were open with reduced occupancy.

There seems to be some myth or bad information about beaches. One one hand governors in coastal states are creating a FUD on being outside at the beach, yet science claims the safer place to be is outside in the sun since the CV has very short lifespan in UV light. Probably sunbathing is good for killing CV but bad for getting skin cancer in 20 years. Pick your poison.

I wouldn't call the area around the Tesla factory "unhealthy".

Neither did I. I actually felt it was more like Jacksonville / Duval County for COVID-19, but I was corrected that in California, Alameda County is a high risk because it is in the "Bay" area which has some kind of proximity danger we don't seem to have here in Florida from county to county. Low infection in adjacent county to Dade county stays low even though Dade is high. It's the population density problem, thus the reason our Governor opens Beaches maintains a closed order for the three counties of Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade which seem to have unusually high COVID-19 cases. But all big cities do have greater risk.

I think We allowed Spring Break and Bike week events to continue too long which is what caused these areas to be high infection in Florida. Once seeded, it just grew. Our first cases were Bikers visiting from NY during Bike week. But our first deaths were all in one nursing home. They believe it was from an out of state (NY) visitor to a relative. In my zip code all the cases are in the apartment communities, not in the single homes. We have 180 cases in 35,000 population in my zip code. Yet over half the population has been laid off of work and people are getting angry and worried about paying bills with no income. Small self employed have been continuing to work, such as my lawn care guy, ignoring the stay at home order. Our police are not shooting violators, not even threatening people. But they have been stopping out of state non commercial travelers coming in on I-95 issuing a quarantine for 2 weeks order. If they are caught violating the order they are arrested and physically quarantined by force.

Meanwhile Tesla was allowed to stay open for deliveries under their own social distancing company guidelines here in Jacksonville. Of course, I'm no expert on Fremont California but I side with Elon Musk that he should have been allowed to manage his company as necessary. Isn't this the second time the government ordered Tesla to close when the fires caused a problem in the nearby counties? Can't recall the details now but seems we had to get detoured on I-5 because of the fires one year. I thought Tesla was closed then too.

 

[linux-works]

from all I've read, its uvC that deactivates the virus, not uvA or B, which you can get from the sun.

all the germicidal lamps (I am buying/building those for a DIY, fwiw) are uvc.

being in the sun is not really going to do much; and uv from the sun is not really *great* for you. you need some, but I would not go seeking UV for my skin. I value my skin. I need it. it covers pretty much my whole body

 

[TravelFree]

Jacksonville infectious disease expert: ‘I think we’re prematurely opening up the beaches’

Thanks for this link I am a participant in their data collection study at covidiq.org to get local information. The local head of this only has a small sample of volunteer members in the city and is making a rather large alarming extrapolation. So far his data for Jacksonville is only 6.8% as having symptoms like a headache or having coughed but may be grossly inaccurate as people responding get tabulated if they have one or more of 9 symptoms. There is no question as to whether you have been tested positive or negative. The survey is not very scientific but I participated so I can follow his data out of personal curiosity.. He makes the local news because he is a single view alarmist. His 6.8% is the growth of his survey sample, not the increase of actual COVID-19 positives. Our county has much better data available than this one doctor has in his study. Would you trust a study with over 8500 cases (Florida Department of Health, Division of Disease Control and Health Protection) in the sample or less than 500 in his study?

 

[brur]

 

[TravelFree]

from all I've read, its uvC that deactivates the virus, not uvA or B, which you can get from the sun.

all the germicidal lamps (I am buying/building those for a DIY, fwiw) are uvc.

being in the sun is not really going to do much; and uv from the sun is not really *great* for you. you need some, but I would not go seeking UV for my skin. I value my skin. I need it. it covers pretty much my whole body

The study recently released made the claim that UVc is what shortens the life of CV and that you are more exposed to UVc in the outdoors than locked up in your home. Concluding that for infectious diseases including viruses, being outdoors is better than being locked up inside. That's the thinking behind opening up the beaches in Florida as long as social distancing continues to be followed. Yes, UVc is more effective when exposed to a welding light or germicidal light, but that doesn't mean being outside is more dangerous than inside according to the latest studies.

I agree with you that sunbathing is dangerous WRT skin cancer. I know as I have been treated for skin cancer because I spent too much time in the sun when I was younger.

 

[TEG]

...Meanwhile Tesla was allowed to stay open for deliveries under their own social distancing company guidelines here in Jacksonville. Of course, I'm no expert on Fremont California but I side with Elon Musk that he should have been allowed to manage his company as necessary. Isn't this the second time the government ordered Tesla to close when the fires caused a problem in the nearby counties? Can't recall the details now but seems we had to get detoured on I-5 because of the fires one year. I thought Tesla was closed then too.

For what it is worth, I have toured that factory multiple times, so I have a little idea of what goes on there.
In the early days of Tesla when they were looking to build their first factory, there was a bunch of debate where to build. They even had some nearly-done deals with Albuquerque and San Jose to build new factories, but then Toyota basically offered them the shuttered Fremont factory for nearly free. (Toyota bought like $42million in TSLA stock, then sold them the factory for $42million.)
[ Actually Toyota did well on that deal because TSLA went up a lot before they eventually sold it. ]
I had posted online before all this that Tesla should buy that factory because it was a so close to HQ and already built just collecting dust... But people laughed at the idea at the time:
"Way more space then they would ever need" (who is laughing now?)
"Too expensive to run a factory in the SF bay area."
"Not the most business friendly place to run a factory."
So those last 2 points are somewhat valid. Tesla has proven they could turn that derelict old factory into a success story. They brought back a lot of jobs to the area. It was probably helpful that HQ management and engineers could just drive over there instead of flying to another state. They had ready access to an idled workforce.
*but* they could have found cheaper labor doing it somewhere else. And yes, California is tougher than many other states on environmental and safety issues.
It is a mixed bag, but I am sure there are times that they have been frustrated that they have to do it the "California way" which is more pro-worker and pro-environment.
I think Tesla must have some respect for these goals or else they wouldn't have taken the competitive disadvantage by doing it this way.
I am very glad that Tesla did it. It has provided lots of local jobs and some pride in "Made in California" (and made in USA) which were fading away.

I am not going to second guess all the debates and decisions Tesla has made with environmental and safety regulators. Hard to make everyone happy on those. Generally I think California regulators are fairly reasonable,, but many would probably disagree with that. This current COVID situation is sort of a s%!tshow with so many saying "Why did they do X when they should have done Y?" with little data to prove why other choices would be better. Everyone is frustrated with this situation. It sucks. What is the value trade-off between public health and business productivity? We got plenty of extreme viewpoints based on whatever axe one has to grind. Many decisions are being made based on speculative assumptions of what may happen. "Control freaks" are going bonkers trying to manage this squishy situation.

 

[TEG]

There seems to be some myth or bad information about beaches. One one hand governors in coastal states are creating a FUD on being outside at the beach, yet science claims the safer place to be is outside in the sun since the CV has very short lifespan in UV light. Probably sunbathing is good for killing CV but bad for getting skin cancer in 20 years. Pick your poison.

A lot of people love being on the beach so much that they are willing to take risks to get back in the sand.
But I think any large public gatherings risk virus spread, even the beach. As I mentioned before, people will be sharing public restrooms at the beach, so it isn't all about being outside in the fresh air. And, yes, the stories about UV light killing the virus, which people have latched onto to say beaches are "safe", was about UV-C light which earth's ozone layer keeps from reaching us.
Can you kill coronavirus with UV light?

There’s only one type of UV that can reliably inactivate Covid-19 – and it’s extremely dangerous.

People are mis-quoting a lot of things to help get what they want. I am not sure if it is wishful thinking, false hope, or rationalization.

Speculating myself: Maybe the outdoor breeze and sunlight helps dry out droplets faster? Maybe COVID doesn't last long on sand? I don't know. I don't feel like testing those theories myself.

 

[linux-works]

The study recently released made the claim that UVc is what shortens the life of CV and that you are more exposed to UVc in the outdoors than locked up in your home. Concluding that for infectious diseases including viruses, being outdoors is better than being locked up inside. That's the thinking behind opening up the beaches in Florida as long as social distancing continues to be followed. Yes, UVc is more effective when exposed to a welding light or germicidal light, but that doesn't mean being outside is more dangerous than inside according to the latest studies.

I agree with you that sunbathing is dangerous WRT skin cancer. I know as I have been treated for skin cancer because I spent too much time in the sun when I was younger.

again, uvc is considered to be fully blocked by the earth's ozone. if you are getting uv from outside, its NOT from uvc.

uva and uvb do not affect viruses, in general - again, from what little I've read (the last few months since its relevant to all of us, now).

wavelength matters. a lot. that's why 'sun tanning' and such does not do anything for CV. and the only germicidal bulbs are 250nm, which is uvc and not uva nor uvb.

Can you kill coronavirus with UV light?

There is also a third type: UVC. This relatively obscure part of the spectrum consists of a shorter, more energetic wavelength of light. It is particularly good at destroying genetic material – whether in humans or viral particles. Luckily, most of us are unlikely to have ever encountered any. That’s because it’s filtered out by ozone in the atmosphere long before it reaches our fragile skin.

Or that was the case, at least, until scientists discovered that they could harness UVC to kill microorganisms. Since the finding in 1878, artificially produced UVC has become a staple method of sterilisation – one used in hospitals, airplanes, offices, and factories every day. Crucially, it’s also fundamental to the process of sanitising drinking water; some parasites are resistant to chemical disinfectants such as chlorine, so it provides a failsafe.

 

[TEG]

So he seems to be "anti-lockdown" & "anti-social-distancing", but "pro-mask", & "pro test-and-quarantine-the-infected", & "pro cause herd immunity."

He also says Sweden in a "winner", and Australia is a "loser" which seems wrong to me...
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
Sweden's coronavirus death rate is nearly double that of the U.S., Trump says country is 'paying heavily' for not imposing a lockdown
Australia slowly comes out of COVID-19 lockdown with packed beaches in Queensland and at Bondi | Daily Mail Online

His view point seems be that herd-immunity is the main goal, not keeping the virus from infecting people...
Not surprising that he got interviewed by an anti-lockdown site.

His thoughts about sacrificing old people to protect young people are thought provoking, but controversial.

With all his brilliance and deep numbers research, I find he rambled a bit which made it hard to know exactly what point he was trying to make.

What was your point in posting that video? To "prove" that we shouldn't be "sheltering in place?"

[ One of his closing quotes was basically "we made a mistake... by allowing the population to increase"... So keep in mind that he seems OK with letting a lot of his older generation die in the name of making life more "normal" for younger people... ]

 

[TEG]

again, uvc is considered to be fully blocked by the earth's ozone. if you are getting uv from outside, its NOT from uvc.
uva and uvb do not affect viruses, in general - again, from what little I've read (the last few months since its relevant to all of us, now).
wavelength matters. a lot. that's why 'sun tanning' and such does not do anything for CV. and the only germicidal bulbs are 250nm, which is uvc and not uva nor uvb.

More on this:
The Ozone Layer Protects Us From UV Radiation - Can UV Protect Us From Coronavirus?

 

[TEG]

So here is a random thought... Throw it into the outlandish conspiracy theory bucket...

What if someone in the world was deeply concerned that overpopulation had led to man-made climate change and future generations would find the planet nearly uninhabitable and the only way out is to shut down manufacturing, transportation, and reduce the global population? What if they had hundreds of deadly viruses in a lab and figured out which one would reduce the elderly population but preserve youth and cause society to shut themselves down to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Totally unbelievable, right?

 

[Jayson]

Elon is ambitious, creative, and wildly successful. But that does not qualify him as an expert on either democracy or epidemiology. Since he has chosen to opine publicly, he should be prepared for corrections.

Let’s start with democracy. The United States is a representative democracy. In the U.S., citizens elect their representatives at all levels of government—local, state, and federal. Those elected representatives either pass new laws or, working within the confines of the constitution, execute existing laws. Certain executives, above all the president and governors, have powers enshrined in the constitution, law, or legal precedent to make decisions that, by some, may be seen as infringement on their rights.

For example, the Trump administration has used executive orders for many reasons, among them restricting immigration, altering wildlife-conservation areas, and permitting the use of lead ammunition for hunting. None of those decisions required new legislation and some were seen as infringements on rights. Previous administrations have also frequently issued executive orders. Indeed, the prerogative extends back to George Washington. Article II of the Constitution provides the president with executive authority to determine how the law should be applied, and almost every president in history has used that power, with recent presidents—Democrat and Republican alike—resorting ever more frequently to executive orders to carry out policy.

Similarly, state governors are considered in the law to have executive authority, which can vary by state according to its constitution, legislative history, and tradition.

So, unless Elon believes the U.S. or state constitutions are themselves “fascist” or “not democratic,” many of the powers exercised by executive authority are fully compatible with U.S.-style representative and constitutional democracy. Elon is welcome to his opinion about executive orders and much else, as is his constitutional right. But if he feels executive authority has gone too far, he is within his rights to seek redress through the courts or to remove public officials in elections. Either approach would be democratic and surely not fascist.

But if all Elon had done in his tirade last week was reveal his ignorance of law and history, that could be easily overlooked as another example of why wealth and wisdom seldom are found in the same person.

Rather, the most dangerous aspect of his remarks was his assertion that free will trumps all. “Give people back their goddamn freedom,” he said. But your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, to paraphrase a line attributed to former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. Or, in the context of the ongoing pandemic, you might say: Your right to freely associate and thereby risk your and other peoples’ lives by transmitting Covid-19 is limited by the rights of others to not be harmed by your actions.

It is the same as restricting the amount one can drink before driving. Or does Elon believe us Tesla drivers should be able to motor off after more than a few?

Elon received a bachelor’s degree in economics from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. Maybe he missed the lecture on externalities in economics, or he would have well understood the preceding paragraphs. It is not an infringement of personal liberty when society asks you to halt actions that put others at mortal risk.

Liberal thinking is foundational to modern democracy. Individual liberty resides at the heart of the U.S. Constitution and underpins our representative democracy. But liberal thinking is not the same as unbridled libertarianism. Absolutes are rare, above all in civil society. Liberty in democratic society has limitations. Unfortunately, successful, self-made people can be blinded by delusions of meritocratic free will, which is why, when it comes to organizing society’s affairs, entrepreneurs need not apply.

 

[israndy]

Couldn't have said it better.

OK, this has been quite a discussion about CV-19, but I think this thread was about Elon putting his foot in his mouth.

To that end, I read somewhere that when Elon posted that he thought the stock price was too high (quickly followed by a diminution of the stock) he, in fact, stopped the trigger for his $750 million bonus, for the stock price reaching certain levels and staying above for a certain amount of time. So as upset as average stockholders might be, he lost MUCH more from that tweet than anyone else.

The comment was that by doing this he saved the Tesla Q2 results from being depressed from paying him that amount in stock. Q2 being the quarter that will be MOST affected by the outbreak and lockdown. This may mean that Q2 profits, when we get there, may have positive results. This would mean 4 quarters of profit, a prerequisite for S&P admission. Joining the S&P will do a LOT to cement Tesla as a real company increasing its success at accomplishing its mission.

The quote was something like Elon is playing 3D chess while we are all playing checkers. Then you couch it in terms of a CEO upset over the business being on lockdown and he can tweet w/o SEC investigation.

That seems very clever if it's the case.