Politics - Quarantine Thread

[Big Toys]

So basically you don’t have anything of value to rebut my points. Lockdowns helped arrest the spread of the virus, otherwise we would have had million more deaths by now, probably.

Yeah, thank GOD for Elon, for disregarding public health and safety. Need more like him. Newsom, who is also doing bad things though, should be recalled.

Who is the hypocrite, mate? Do you even see the irony here, or is that too much for you to comprehend?

As for your statement that COVID is mainly dangerous to the vulnerable, well, that says it all about you, doesn’t it.
Let the weak and vulnerable die, eh?

I am putting you on mute from now on.

Physician here. "Lockdowns" were not science-based, and any physician who recommends isolating the healthy would fail his boards. But we need real physicians in gov't, not academics turned politician. Recent Hopkins study showed minimal benefit of lockdowns (2%, like this was epidemiologic news?), not addressing the risk:benefit and damage to the economy and childrens' mental health. The "vulnerable" are the most at-risk with *any* respiratory infection, including flu, bronchitis, etc. Who said anything about letting them die? Vaccinations and treatment should have been directed at them, not the general public. New (technically experimental and unproven) vaccines with a relatively novel delivery mechanism (never tested large scale) for the least vulnerable population (kids)? Board and ethics fail. Lying about initial availability of masks and their minimal effectiveness against an airborne virus 2 years into this? Malpractice and a medical ethics violation. My medical license would be suspended or revoked. This is the real science, not the garbage coming from the gov't. Any medical profession who actually earned their diploma and who had critical thinking skills could see this from a mile away. Some of us did, and actually took heat from our colleagues who bought into the psychosis. Worse, we again see 90 years later how easily a large public mass can be manipulated into believing almost anything, and how eager they are to give up their freedoms to the benevolent dictators/administrators/presidents/scientists, et. al. without question under threat of the literal or social "stick".

 

[soumak]

It's kinda like recognizing vaccine development companies without mentioning either Pfizer or Moderna. "Astra-Zeneca and Johnson & Johnson, thank you for making the best vaccines and being a leader in the fight against Covid!" Does that sound right to you?

I honestly don’t think it matters. The only company I heard him talk about is gm and ford. Haven’t heard him say keep, chevy, Toyota, Subaru, ext. I think people are reading too much into it.

 

[_Redshift_]

"Lockdowns" were not science-based, and any physician who recommends isolating the healthy would fail his boards. But we need real physicians in gov't, not academics turned politician. Recent Hopkins study showed minimal benefit of lockdowns, not addressing the damage to the economy and childrens' mental health. The "vulnerable" are the most at-risk with *any* respiratory infection. Who said anything about letting them die? Vaccinations and treatment should have been directed at them, not the general public. This is science, not the garbage coming from the gov't.

When lockdowns we’re announced, we were in the beginning stages of a bad pandemic. No one could predict how things would trend.

Not isolating the ‘healthy’ wasn’t something could have been practical to implement. Many people didn’t show symptoms, yet could transmit the virus. Your imperious claim that any physician who recommended thus would not pass the board is just puffery and hubris. What training do you have to make such a claim?

Now, one study is showing limited effectiveness after 2 years of the pandemic. Even if we take it at it’s face value, at the time, no one has the hindsight 20/20 benefit. No, not even Elon, as god like as he must seem to you. He was acting out of anxiety that the lockdown would cause on Tesla. While other big and small businesses obeyed the law, Elon chose to go the other way, and he was 100% wrong to do that.

Those who are thanking GOD that Elon did what he did must stop castigating Gavin Newsom. Double standards at best, flaming hypocrisy at its worst.

I am done with this devolved thread.

 

[Big Toys]

Speaking of...did ANY of the "we can easily produce thousands of ventilators from car parts" ever get made? Even one? And no, Im not talking about the third party CPAP machines that were purchased. Im talking about the promise of MAKING them..

Doubtful, since they were no longer needed. In fact, the very many (millions?) ventilators that were bought became gov't surplus and were sold off to 3rd world counties. However, simple vent machines can indeed be made with very simple parts--compressor, valves, pressure dials, adjustable pressure and volume regulator, hose fittings, power source. The Army used to have hand held models the dimensions of a car battery that were used for battlefield medicine with only one or two adjustments for volume and pressure.

 

[Crutonius]

Doubtful, since they were no longer needed. In fact, the very many (millions?) ventilators that were bought became gov't surplus and were sold off to 3rd world counties. However, simple vent machines can indeed be made with very simple parts--compressor, valves, pressure dials, adjustable pressure and volume regulator, hose fittings, power source. The Army used to have hand held models the dimensions of a car battery that were used for battlefield medicine with only one or two adjustments for volume and pressure.

It's my understanding that ventilators of the sort we use on covid patients are quite a bit more sophisticated than something jamming air into someone's lungs. It has to take a lot into account to apply the right amount of pressure in the right rhythm or it risks blowing out someone's lungs.

This was the fundamental misconception that Musk had when he proposed his solution.

 

[al36]

Thank you for your question and this will probably be my last post on the matter, however since you enquired, I shall answer. First of all, I believe a CEO must serve as the brand ambassador, and whilst even the most popular of figures in the public domain will have their detractors, Elon's achievements defied even the loftiest of hopes and expectations. I recall during the introductory unveiling of the Model S concept, and you had analysts from both Goldman and JP Morgan (underwriters no less for the IPO) opining that success for Tesla would be challenging and privately confident that Tesla would not survive. It has, and thrived at that. Tesla and Elon have changed an entire industry. Not unlike Apple, (and with a far greater challenge having no engineering or manufacturing experience in sphere) challenged an entire industry as Apple did with the iPhone and now if an a manufacturer is not accelerating their EV development, the industry experts now question their relevance and going concern (sustainability). That is a breathtaking reversal that was unfathomable by so many experts not long ago.

I had hoped and whilst he will certainly be entitled to take a victory lap or two, that somehow he would grow as a person and recognise that his success was aided by so many brilliant engineers and dedicated layman, and perhaps he would even take a more egalitarian view of his new status.

A brand ambassador does not mean he or she must lack personality. In fact, I believe someone's humanity is good for business and the brand regardless of disposition. Yet there is a vast gulf between personality and toxicity.

Elon has benefited greatly from hyper "liberal" policies, "socialistic" initiatives, and the most basic "crowd funding" movement; The Model S made Tesla possible. And I knew enough about Elon to realise he was never a liberal at heart and that was no concern of mine. However somewhere along the way he selectively forgot what enabled his success. Below is a short list of exceptions that I could no longer tolerate.

California and various other progressive countries gave Tesla the fertile ground (via policies and tax incentives) to succeed. However when their policies no longer suited his agenda, his petulance, distorted view of reality, and vindictiveness was in full view. Moving Tesla from CA to TX, a state where Tesla is not allowed to sell his cars is the epitome of biting the hand that feeds you.

As the brand ambassador, I had hoped he would embrace other manufacturers entering the EV realm as he did early on. And then it would have been fair game to eviscerate them based on engineering and performance. However now, it seems he takes exception that these legacy makers and new entrants enjoy the same government sponsored benefits Tesla enjoyed. His libertarian sensibilities disappear as he routinely gripes about his competitors and still believes that Tesla should be entitled to some undefined non-existent mandated government advantage whilst simultaneously decrying government "overreach".

Those whom have opined that Elon and Tesla should be treated as disparate entities, I could not agree more. Yet Elon makes that impossible since he treats and operates Tesla as an extension of his ego, will, voice, behaviour, and an appendage. Thus the company has come to symbolise him in ways that I can no longer tolerate.

His stance on the pandemic, citing caricatures such as Rogan (a self-described moron) and far flung conspiracies on Covid-19 are unforgivable to me. Taking personal exceptions with mandates is one matter, yet undermining the efforts to deliver society out of this pandemic is entirely another, and then to posit Tesla as the bargaining chip to gain more favourable terms is unconscionable.

His stance on taxes and paying his fair share is something I find unconscionable especially in the wake of such suffering. Paying $10 billion in taxes on nearly a $300 billion dollar fortune is a bargain by any standard. Yet he seems to be confused by the notion that his success is not his alone and this is matter that I can debate endlessly yet I shall leave it as is.

And then of course the cringe worthy confrontations, twitter rows, spats, and unseemly exchanges he engages in are beyond the pale. Aligning his sensibilities with far right elements that not long ago would have done away with him if they could is perplexing at best.

Where is Elon's real courage to take on Goldman and JP Morgan analysts whom in 2019 said that Tesla's intellectual property was worth $7 a share......I suppose taking on Elizabeth Warren and the like is his definition of manhood....right.

Thanks for the response and good luck on your future EV driving endeavors! We are living in interesting times.

 

[DanDi58]

I have question that deviates little bit of this topic.
If in case bill passes and federal tax credit is applicable for Tesla also in 2022, will that apply for the cars that are delivered in 2022 whole year?
or is it only applicable for cars that are delivered after tax credit comes to active?

There are a few threads regarding this, most of them speculation because no one really knows. The assumption for 2021 was that it would be retroactive to the beginning of 2021, the current tax year (at the time) since you'd have gotten the credit in 2022 for your 2021 taxes. However, according to Prime Minister Joe Manchin, the BBB bill is dead so.... I'll also note that all the folks that were waiting for the tax credit to pass have now wasted a year and are looking at a cost of about $9k more than when I got mine in March of 2021. (Cue wailing and gnashing of teeth...)

 

[Double-O]

We have to get back to normal. The main issue with COVID19 is that during the initial waves, there was a shortage of hospital beds at certain locations. With the most recent wave, we haven't seen that to the same extent that we have seen in prior waves. Vaccination rates are fairly high in the highest populated states and they are slowly increasing. Especially in the high risk demographis, we are looking at 75+% vaccination rates. Over the age of 65 I believe it's well over 80%.
While cases of long covid are unfortunate, they will continue to happen. We can't run around with masks indefinitely and/or place more restrictions on businesses that have been hurt already too much.
What do you suggest we should do to prevent long COVID and for how long?

Our governor and mayor are catchin big time heat over last weekends rams game photo with magic johnson.

These politicians want to enforce rules while making it known that none of those same rules apply to them. Then again, California as a state is a joke that's ran by clowns anyway. I guess it's fitting.

 

[golfcart]

Florida is not doing “well”.

U.S. COVID death rate by state 2023 | Statista

As of March 2023, Arizona had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 455 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.

www.statista.com

Someone 85+ is 340x as likely to die from COVID as an 18-29 year old according to the CDC. The number is 25x for a 50-64 year old.

CDC risk by age

Raw numbers are not particularly useful because the risk from COVID varies tremendously by age. The median age in Florida is 42.4 while the median age in California is 37. Why would were compare raw numbers between those two states? So why are you posting raw numbers? I think it’s a poor metric when age adjusted numbers are available.

Median age by state

That’s why I look at age adjusted numbers and have posted them multiple times in this thread. Based on age adjusted numbers Florida’s death rate is 31st out of 51 states + DC. It’s not tops but it’s better than a lot of states with much stricter lockdowns, vaccine mandates, mask mandates, school closures, etc… so I say they are doing well but you are more than welcome to disagree as it is subjective.

The obsession with Florida is laughable, Texas or New York’s (age adjusted) numbers are way worse but the Democratic Party and their captured media organizations are so afraid of President Desantis in 2024 that they have to talk about every outbreak the state has 24/7. They only help him by doing this. It’s a shame to see them constantly acting against their own self interest but they can’t seem to help themselves.

 

[shinytop]

You think CA is run by clowns? I will be happy to give you DeSantis.

 

[Black/Black MS]

Elon 'ates commies, loves freedom. Simple as.

Also builds the best rockets and autos in the history of the world, and is just getting started.

 

[_Redshift_]

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't this easy? If you don't have symptoms, then you're healthy. Virus or not.

No symptoms means your immune system has it under control. Which means you're healthy.

Now take the healthy person, tell them the sky is falling. Take away their job. Force their kids out of school. Panic their neighbors and cause a run on grocery stores. Open the treasury and start handing out all the money as if we'd converted to socialism overnight and without a vote. Cancel their social network, friends, family, church. Limit their oxygen while in public, and increase CO2 intake.

Now you have a sick person.

Not really, I have already explained why! Asymptomatic people can transmit the virus and harm others.

God, facts and reality do not go to some parts of the USA.

 

[RD36]

Surely you jest.

You wanna talk about sacrifice and responsibility to one another? Then tell me why are all the top politicians rich as hell when we have homeless people on the streets? Where’s the sacrifice? Where’s this responsibility that we have for one another?
In California, our governor is a millionaire. Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi is worth 114 MILLION dollars, senator Diane Feinstein is worth 90 million dollars. We also have over 100k homeless people in the state, where’s their sacrifice? Why aren’t they sacrificing? If you say we have a responsibility to each other then why aren’t the people creating these mandates that you say require sacrifice, being asked to lead by example?

California has an indoor mask mandate in effect and our governor was seen at a football game, indoor, without a mask, again.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to sit back and just do as I’m told by hypocrites and liars, I’m not going to adhere to every rule these morons create without giving it any thought or consideration of my own.

I am not certain how I got involved in this discussion as I responding to you when you opined on my cancellation of my Plaid order however I shall say to respond to you as I did to another member.

I'm afraid your thinking and reasoning is illogical at best and convoluted at worst. If a policeman or prosecutor commit the very crime they are entrusted to prohibit and enforce, does that make the provision and crime less applicable to protect society? It would certainly be hypocritical and undermine their authority to a degree, however it does not make said prohibition, provision, or law less necessary. If the Governor of California acted in bad faith, he should face the public rebuke of his constituents and whatever penalties any other citizen would face.

What is draconian is having your previous head of state (the orange mental midget) advising some combination of use of bleach, warm summer breeze, and an unproven and unsuitable treatment (Hydroxychloroquine) as the remedy to a pandemic that was well underway. What is draconian is his governments denial, obfuscation, and deliberate misinformation that exacerbated a condition that required expertise, adherence to science, and execution. What is draconian is Elon's belief and arrogance that he can somehow extrapolate his expertise in another field and apply it to another in defiance of an entire scientific community because their message does not fit his agenda.

Draconian is a society that could have avoided much of this had it simply attempted to apply reason rather than superstition, logic in place of ideology, and acted responsibly rather than the impulse of unfounded and unseemly conspiracies to contain the spread of this virus that unleashed the unfortunate chain of events.

 

[David_Cary]

As a physician I can fully acknowledge that physicians can often view facts through a certain political and worldview. They also are often very guilty of hubris - probably way more than non-MDs. I can also assure you that many people make it through medical school with a serious lack of critical thinking skills. Medical school teaches facts for the most part although most will delve into critical thinking (but you can certainly get by with skipping those classes).

I have a colleague who is firmly entrenched in the right wing metaverse including probably Qanon. Being an MD doesn't make you immune to anything. But it does tend to make you more potentially dangerous on providing advice on social media.

 

[1windy]

I am still hopeful to be able to turn off regeneration braking. My 14 year old loves making farts but argues to take my Ram 1500 so he doesn't get sick sitting in the back seat.

 

[1windy]

Elon treats government officials the same way he treats his customers.

So true, but I love me a good BERNie. And he really knows how to POCA them.

 

[Big Toys]

As a physician I can fully acknowledge that physicians can often view facts through a certain political and worldview. They also are often very guilty of hubris - probably way more than non-MDs. I can also assure you that many people make it through medical school with a serious lack of critical thinking skills. Medical school teaches facts for the most part although most will delve into critical thinking (but you can certainly get by with skipping those classes).

I have a colleague who is firmly entrenched in the right wing metaverse including probably Qanon. Being an MD doesn't make you immune to anything. But it does tend to make you more potentially dangerous on providing advice on social media.

As a physician I can fully acknowledge that physicians can often view facts through a certain political and worldview. They also are often very guilty of hubris - probably way more than non-MDs. I can also assure you that many people make it through medical school with a serious lack of critical thinking skills. Medical school teaches facts for the most part although most will delve into critical thinking (but you can certainly get by with skipping those classes).

I have a colleague who is firmly entrenched in the right wing metaverse including probably Qanon. Being an MD doesn't make you immune to anything. But it does tend to make you more potentially dangerous on providing advice on social media.

You would give different advice in person than on social media?

 

[Neon001]

Trying not to get embroiled in the politics here, but to throw an opinion in on the Elon/Tesla situation, I agree with those that are offended at the childish nature of many of his public messages, but in some areas I think he shows a surprising amount of restraint. Biden deserved far worse than he got from Musk for the blatant and egregious disrespect of Tesla's accomplishments within the EV industry. It's a fact that GM and the rest of the world wouldn't give a single hoot about EVs if Tesla weren't now a trillion dollar company threatening their market share.

I also agree with others dislike of celebrities (and Musk is certainly one, thanks in no small part to the mainstream media for reporting every single time his world's weathiest person status shifts) using their platform as a mouthpiece to push political messages, regardless of which side of the aisle they come down on, but that's not what really bothers me as a Tesla owner. After all, I don't use twitter and can easily tune him out. But what I find most objectionable about Musk is what he's doing to the car company.

Tesla used to give a crap about what the people wanted, but Musk is doing to Tesla what Chris Bangle did to BMW back in the early 2000s: forcing his vision on customers at the expense of pursing a generally appreciated product (yes, I understand you can't please everyone). Yoke steering; elimination of buttons to an extent that goes well beyond any sensible limit; eliminating features simply because people don't use them often enough; sweeping, almost universally negative UI overhauls that are forced upon the customer; vehicle design that heavily (and increasingly) focuses on FSD tech a) is broken, and b) has not materialized despite nearly a decade of promises to this effect. The list goes on. "Almost all input is error" is such an asinine statement on the subject of UI and human factors engineering that I don't believe I could achieve common ground to even have a discussion on vehicle design philosophy with such an individual.

And the prioritization of growth and FSD (that I'm convinced will never achieve true level 3 (let alone 5) autonomy because of Musk's unflinching support of flawed tech) over absolutely every other aspect of the auto sales business is even worse, especially when the growth itself is what is exacerbating all the issues with sustainment. Issues such as overwhelmed service centers; not enough customer support live agents forcing all customer engagements to be handled through detestable in-app messaging and requests; massive spare parts shortages (acknowledged and publically deprioritized shortages!); products that release with features missing that were promised at time of purchase; and the gradual erosion of customer perks such as referral bonuses, limited free supercharging, limited free premium connectivity, and more restricted home deliveries. The utterly broken order and delivery process was somewhat acceptable (or at least understandable) when the company was a small fry, and supporting the Tesla business model was tantamount to crowd funding a novel concept of automobile purchase. This is not so anymore, and now that Tesla is established, Musk needs to put someone at the helm that understands to how to run a car business.

Elon should turn over Tesla to a real CEO and go run his rocket company.

 

[Big Toys]

Question: I recall early on Fauci and others stating that the cloth masks (non N95) were really to protect others, not yourself. (But if EVERYONE wore them, then everyone is better protected). And that the studies (and visual infrared tests shown on TV) showed that mask (or face covering, whatever we want to call it then) would greatly reduce the DISTANCE those droplets could travel. So face coverings over mouth/nose COMBINED with at least 6 feet of distancing, were both effective (but not 100%..nothing is) measures at reducing (not preventing) the spread.

Are you saying all of that is false? Serious question

No.

Question: I recall early on Fauci and others stating that the cloth masks (non N95) were really to protect others, not yourself. (But if EVERYONE wore them, then everyone is better protected). And that the studies (and visual infrared tests shown on TV) showed that mask (or face covering, whatever we want to call it then) would greatly reduce the DISTANCE those droplets could travel. So face coverings over mouth/nose COMBINED with at least 6 feet of distancing, were both effective (but not 100%..nothing is) measures at reducing (not preventing) the spread.

Are you saying all of that is false? Serious question

(weird formatting) No. Masks are good at preventing droplets from penetrating outward, less so for aerosol. Yes, you did derive some benefit, though less with Omicron. Poorly fitting masks and cloth masks were mostly useless, and still are. However, mask recommendations are not without mental health and child development issues, and tends to bring out the inner gestapo in some people. My main beef with our gov't doctors and the "science" is 1. how they lied to us to protect logistics, and 2. their use of new vaccinations and how they define "vaxxed". Vaccinations/shots expose your immune system to specific (or range) of antigens that prime an immune response for the correct antibodies so that your immune system is ready to go with the those antibodies should it be exposed to the real thing at some time later. For COVID, the antigen they chose is the spike protein of the original COVID-19, and they chose a delivery mechanism never tried large scale. But the gov't has completely ignored a very large population that had the virus AND received a vax, like me, which is the same and/or better than exposure from vaxx x 2. The data supporting that came during Delta and is widely available, which is why I got vaxxed x 1. The gov't does not recognize my immune status, including Medicare, and I am therefore required to get a second vaxx AFTER infection + vax, excluding any "booster", if I wish to participate in that program (infection + full dose vaxx x 2). There is no infectious disease I know of where that is a clinical recommendation. And it now applies to *anyone* doing business with the gov't. (SCOTUS just said gov't can dictate what medical procedure or requirement you *must* have if you want their benefits, whether it is necessary or not. Think about that.) Why now? Because it would be too difficult to try to explain to the masses with average IQs that these high-risk cohorts would benefit the most and these cohorts would not, because there are just too many variables and it's just too complicated, so they make blanket mandates to CYA and can never be blamed. Horrible. Give a one-year-old, no-long-term-safety-data-incorrectly-coded vaccine to kids, the lowest risk group?? COVID-19 no longer exists. No IRB or ethics board outside of DC would ever approve it, and they are going forward with it. Omicron boosters for low risk groups that already have a low risk of hospitalization/death with the same serum that is incorrectly coded for the Omicron spike? So, you'll have to pardon my long post and my skepticism of gov't physicians and scientists who have this power over you.

 

[2101Guy]

Elon should turn over Tesla to a real CEO and go run his rocket company.

BOOM. There you go.