Poll for Model 3 owners: Vampire drain rates?

[gearchruncher]

So it wastes 1 kWh per day. Big deal. That’s 10 cents where I live. Somethings I think people just need something to criticize.

Lots of people buy an EV because they want to reduce the overall energy usage of a vehicle over the lifespan of the vehicle.

I drop about 6 miles a day on my Model X, which is 2kWh a day. That's 700kWh a year, or the same as about 20 gallons of gasoline in energy, or driving the Model X 2,000 miles extra that year. Just to keep the car around. Over 10 years, it will have used 200 gallons of gas worth of energy, not moving at all. Meanwhile, a normal ICE car will have used less than 1% of this energy while turned off.

Every time a Tesla is built, it's like having a 75W light bulb made that will be on 24 hours a day for the next 15 years, or driving an extra 15% over the average annual mileage. As great as the energy efficiency of a Tesla is overall, this is clearly a place they could improve.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Lots of people buy an EV because they want to reduce the overall energy usage of a vehicle over the lifespan of the vehicle.

I drop about 6 miles a day on my Model X, which is 2kWh a day. That's 700kWh a year, or the same as about 20 gallons of gasoline in energy, or driving the Model X 2,000 miles extra that year. Just to keep the car around. Over 10 years, it will have used 200 gallons of gas worth of energy, not moving at all. Meanwhile, a normal ICE car will have used less than 1% of this energy while turned off.

Every time a Tesla is built, it's like having a 75W light bulb made that will be on 24 hours a day for the next 15 years, or driving an extra 15% over the average annual mileage. As great as the energy efficiency of a Tesla is overall, this is clearly a place they could improve.

There are 254 million registered vehicles in the US so if every one was replaced with a Tesla that would be 185TWh per year. Total US electricity consumption is 3911TWh per year. Nearly 5%!

 

[H2050]

Your car is never really "Off", but in sleep mode to put it simply.
Just like a phone still eats energy in sleep mode, so does a car.
I would consider the 2kwh a day the normal amount of energy required to maintain the car.

 

[Twiglett]

Your car is never really "Off", but in sleep mode to put it simply.
Just like a phone still eats energy in sleep mode, so does a car.
I would consider the 2kwh a day the normal amount of energy required to maintain the car.

Indeed
I’m guessing my rates were so low because it’s hot here right now so battery temps are probably just right.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Lots of people buy an EV because they want to reduce the overall energy usage of a vehicle over the lifespan of the vehicle.

I drop about 6 miles a day on my Model X, which is 2kWh a day. That's 700kWh a year, or the same as about 20 gallons of gasoline in energy, or driving the Model X 2,000 miles extra that year. Just to keep the car around. Over 10 years, it will have used 200 gallons of gas worth of energy, not moving at all. Meanwhile, a normal ICE car will have used less than 1% of this energy while turned off.

Every time a Tesla is built, it's like having a 75W light bulb made that will be on 24 hours a day for the next 15 years, or driving an extra 15% over the average annual mileage. As great as the energy efficiency of a Tesla is overall, this is clearly a place they could improve.

AFAIK, a big chunk of that energy use is monitoring the battery pack and regulating it's temperature to minimize degradation. Page 19 of this pdf has a graph illustrating how much temperature influences battery degradation.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66708.pdf

You can initially use more energy to minimize battery degradation, or you can use less energy and end up replacing the battery sooner, which also takes more energy.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Your car is never really "Off", but in sleep mode to put it simply.
Just like a phone still eats energy in sleep mode, so does a car.
I would consider the 2kwh a day the normal amount of energy required to maintain the car.

Except a phone will remain on standby for a week with a 10Wh battery!

AFAIK, a big chunk of that energy use is monitoring the battery pack and regulating it's temperature to minimize degradation. Page 19 of this pdf has a graph illustrating how much temperature influences battery degradation.

Many people are seeing high vampire drain even in cool climates.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Except a phone will remain on standby for a week with a 10Wh battery!

Many people are seeing high vampire drain even in cool climates.

A phone will. It's not regulating the temperature of it's own battery via some sort of climate control, so there's next to no current draw. On the other hand, the majority of phone batteries won't go 5+ years with minimal degradation like the majority of Tesla batteries seem to.

The potential problem with anecdotal reports of high vampire drain is that people aren't compensating for different variables like pack voltage, pack temperature, and known power draws like cabin overhear protection. When I let my 3 sit for 18+ hours, assuming it's not too sunny out, I see maybe a miles worth of vampire drain. When I compared range loss immediately after supercharging to when the pack has cooled off a fair bit and it's voltage has settled after several hours, I saw vampire drain too, but that's not real drain, it's the car's computer reporting different values for range as a function of pack temperature and SOC. The update to enable cabin overheat protection is another factor. For me, that uses roughly 1mph, which makes sense because the HVAC fan is running a fair bit to keep the cabin temp down.

Now if someone parks their car in their garage, lets the pack voltage settle/temperature stabilize, and then compares the range at that point to the range later and sees a significant difference, then the car's likely not going to sleep for some reason. Most of the time that reason is API access, their phone waking up the car often, and/or cabin overheat protection if it's sunny. But if none of those apply, then that's unexplained vampire loss and I would contact Tesla about it.

 

[jsmay311]

Except a phone will remain on standby for a week with a 10Wh battery!

Many people are seeing high vampire drain even in cool climates.

It's not regulating the temperature of it's own battery via some sort of climate control, so there's next to no current draw.

Shouldn't we already have a very good understanding of when and how Teslas heat/cool their battery packs independent of this vampire drain discussion? People have been monitoring and micro-analyzing every detail of S/X's for years... surely this is a known quantity by now, right?

So can anyone point to a definitive (non-speculative) description of this behavior/algorithm? (I'd expect that there's basically zero battery heating/cooling when there car is off and unplugged except in extreme hot (and maybe cold) conditions.)

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I've read plenty of reports of significant vampire drain with cars parked in garages -- out of direct sunlight and in moderate temperatures. So battery pack temperature regulation doesn't explain Tesla's vampire drain problem.

Anyway, shouldn't we already have a very good understanding of when and how Teslas heat/cool their battery packs independent of this vampire drain discussion? People have been micro-analyzing every detail of S/X's for years... surely this is a known quantity by now, right. So can anyone point to a definitive (non-speculative) description of this behavior/algorithm? (I'd expect that there's basically zero battery heating/cooling when there car is off and unplugged except in extreme hot (and maybe cold) conditions.)

Was the pack temperature and voltage allowed to settle before the initial reading, was there anything polling the car through the API, and were the phone keys kept far enough away to avoid waking up the car?

If all of those conditions were met, then I would definitely contact Tesla about anything beyond a mile or two of range loss over 12-24 hours.

Having said that, it's hard to control for all of that. When I tested vampire loss over 18+ hours I'm fairly certain I woke up the car +/- 5 times because I would walk past it in the driveway and hear it doing *stuff. That's probably why I lost a mile over 18 hours. I wouldn't be surprised if the loss would be much higher with the car in the garage because it's close to the family room, kitchen, and one of the upstairs bedrooms/bathrooms.

* If I was farther away I wouldn't hear too much, but if I got too close I could hear the clunk from what I'm guessing is the battery contactor.

 

[H2050]

Model 3 is a Schrodinger's Car. Every time you check your phone app it wakes the car partially to update information.
So don't check your app, don't get near your car!!

 

[israndy]

If you are on an iPhone and wanna see if the car is asleep w/o waking it, add the Tesla app to the Widgets. From the home screen swipe left and you'll see all apps that can show quick information, i.e. weather and battery charge. Scroll to the bottom and click Edit. Add the Tesla app to this screen. In the future when you go here you can see the last REPORTED status of the car w/o waking it. There is a wake button if you want the absolutely latest, or you can just open the Tesla app directly.

-Randy

 

[electracity]

you can see that i am not an american so the likelihood of my having a 3 is slim to none.

Yeah, but you fate as an Australian seems to be to give up your high paying job to become a bartender in SoCal.

 

[URFIR3D]

Are any of you guys still experiencing the crazy vampire drain?

I’m still losing 20 miles per day with the car garages and idle, and I’m not using any API services like TezLab. Please let’s me know if you are also having the same problem or if your issues have been resolved.

Again, please only respond if you are NOT using any API services, so that we don’t skew the responses.

Tesla keeps telling me that this is common in the fleet, but I don’t know anyone else with this bad a drain.

 

[AustinPowers]

So it wastes 1 kWh per day. Big deal. That’s 10 cents where I live. Somethings I think people just need something to criticize.

Where to start about such ignorance?

First of all, good for you that your electricity is so cheap. Don't think that everyone is so lucky.
Secondly, 1 kWh per day means that, if the battery is 60 kWh, the vampire drain alone empties the battery in just about two months worth of idle time. That seems an awful lot to me. If your ICE sits in your garage for 60 day, is your tank empty afterwards?

Disadvantages like such high vampire drain is just what naysayers about BEVs feed on.

 

[URFIR3D]

My car will be empty in 15 days, not even 60 days, it freaking sucks and Tesla is just telling me that this is normal and to wait for firmware!

Ya at this point, it's the summer and I can't road trip in the vehicle. Not unless I get to my destination with enough battery for the stay AND making it back to a supercharger. I blow through 140 miles in vampire drain in a week, which means if I get somewhere, halfway through my stay, even if I'm not using the car, I'll probably need to go out and find an SC just to make sure I'm not stranded. Having 2 miles per day isn't a huge deal, having 20 miles per day, or 6.5% of my battery is a HUGE damn problem.

I also don't get to plug in every day where I live, and I pay a premium on electricity at 20c/kWh... So I'm paying double what TexasEV is on electricity and I have to charge much more often for no good reason.

 

[EnrgyNDpndnce]

@URFIR3D - I feel for ya bro. I just ordered my 3 last week so I have several months before delivery. Can’t wait to make my last visit to a gas station, and I would be super frustrated once I get the car if I start losing 20 miles per day like you. It seems if you have turned off all third party apps and Bluetooth and all the rest of it, and you are still having that problem, there is something wrong. Not sure if you have tried this, but if not maybe call Tesla Corporate directly to register a complaint. I have read in other threads that people do that sometimes when the service centers are not helpful and often they get relief by going this route.

Good luck to you my friend, hope the problem gets resolved for you soon.

 

[URFIR3D]

@URFIR3D - I feel for ya bro. I just ordered my 3 last week so I have several months before delivery. Can’t wait to make my last visit to a gas station, and I would be super frustrated once I get the car if I start losing 20 miles per day like you. It seems if you have turned off all third party apps and Bluetooth and all the rest of it, and you are still having that problem, there is something wrong. Not sure if you have tried this, but if not maybe call Tesla Corporate directly to register a complaint. I have read in other threads that people do that sometimes when the service centers are not helpful and often they get relief by going this route.

Good luck to you my friend, hope the problem gets resolved for you soon.

Thanks man, I did a few days ago, I should hopefully get a call tomorrow.

 

[CAM#3]

FW upgrade to 26.1 made a huge difference. On old (24.1) was losing about 0.3 to 0.35 miles per hour or about 7.5 Miles each day parked overnight in 70 F garage (no monitoring apps, etc.). After 26.1 drain down to under 2 miles each day.

Also the FW update was by Tesla SC and they also "updated the Battery Management System bootloader" Not sure what that is but it may have also helped....

Also car seems to take lot longer to wake up via the app, so maybe a deeper sleep....but that is a tradeoff I am very happy to live with.

 

[Dana1]

How are people monitoring? I get an emailed report from TezLab every morning, I fear that having an app like that or TeslaFi polling the car may be CAUSING my drain. In another thread, someone spoke of checking the loss between the time you get out of the car and the next time you get in the car. I just always forget.

I am outside the bell curve on this poll.

-Randy

I noticed drain based on battery range when I park and the next morning. A week ago I added TeslaFi to quantify but set sleep settings, etc, so it’s not polling all the time.

 

[ezevphl]

So after turning off cabin overheat protection, things seem to have improved quite a bit. Checked the Tesla app last night and this morning. About 13 hours total, car parked outside, temps in high 70s rain. Exact same range, no apparent loss at all.