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Poll: Guess 70 mph Steady State Range of Model 3 Vs Bolt

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by SageBrush, Sep 14, 2016.

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Highway Range at Normative US Driving Speeds

Poll closed Oct 12, 2016.
  1. Bolt beats M3 by 5%

    9.1%
  2. Bolt beats M3 by 10%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Bolt beats M3 by 15%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. M3 beats Bolt by 15%

    32.3%
  5. M3 beats Bolt by 10%

    44.4%
  6. M3 beats Bolt by 5%

    14.1%
  1. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    Imagine each car charged to maximum, and then taken on a highway trip at 70 mph the entire time. Wind is minimal and the day is fair. Which car goes further, in relative terms ?
     
  2. zentage

    zentage Member

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    Bolt has 0.32cd ratio?and a M3 is expected to have 0.21?

    at those speeds the drag coefficient will mean alot, so I would expect the M3 to be far superior.
     
  3. erthquake

    erthquake Member

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    I'm guessing the Bolt would go 200 miles and base Model 3 245 miles: about 20 percent.
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    #4 SageBrush, Sep 15, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2016
    I came up with combined air+road resistance of 268 Wh/mile for the Bolt and 195 Wh/mile for the M3.
    I guess that the Bolt will have a battery size some 15-20% larger than the base M3.
     
  5. MichFin

    MichFin Member

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    I feel like everyone is making a big deal about the range where it really doesn't matter much once you pass 200+ miles. As all Tesla owners know you wake up each morning to a near full charge so if the range is 200, 250 or 300 it doesn't really matter unless you go on a road trip. So the real question is how does the car perform at the fast charger and do they exist.

    Furthermore, I will they would stop comparing all electric cars to each other. A Leaf and a Model S have as much in common as a Ford Focus and a Mercedes S class.
     
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  6. Model S M.D.

    Model S M.D. Ludicrous Radiologist

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    Totally agree with you. Comparing the range on a bolt to a M3 is like comparing the gas tank on a civic to a BMW 3 series. I charge at home every night and wake up to a 90% full "tank" of gas every day which is more than enough for my daily activities. If I want to travel long distance, the superchargers I use are way less than 200 miles apart from each other. It is a moot point really.
     
  7. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    You got a point here, but you misses a bit...
    I need thous 200 miles range - when not going at a road trip. So yes, I can live with 215 miles range, and have 15 miles of buffers. But as the range goes up from 200 miles, I get more buffers = less strain on the battery = longer battery life.

    It may be, but none of this cars is been compared here. It the Bolt and Model 3, and just how much or little they have in common is the topic. You may well come with arguments that this two cars should not be compared, but that argument you gave is no argument in this topic.

    And yes, for some car buyers it is a real question "What I should get - a Model 3 or a Bolt (Ampera-e)?".
     
  8. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    It's not going to matter.

    Most Model 3 reserve buyers are driving ICE until the Model 3 comes out. If the Model 3 is not more fashionable socially than the BMW 3xx, they will buy the BMW. Several folk have already said their Dream Car is a 3xx. Wow. Like saying your dream job is the asst. manager at Taco Bell. Much better than the guy who cleans the tables.
     
  9. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    Maybe. Let's say car A gets a range of 250 miles on 95% of the battery, and car B gets a range of 225 miles on 90% of the battery. Range =/= Buffer.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  10. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    Now you are talking about the buffers that the manufacturers have put there. In your example car A gets a 100% battery range of 263 miles and car B gets a 100% battery range of 250 miles, so all else being equal, car A seems to be the better choice - with only this manufacturer installed buffers (but I do not know if this buffers are at the top and/or the bottom? Yes, that matters).

    But I was more looking for the extra buffers I may have within the driving range of the car (I interpret that in your example this 90 and 95% is "max charge" of the battery) - with not charging the car to max range, and have still some SOC left when I park at home. So needing 200 miles I could with:
    car A:
    charge to 90% of max range (250 miles) = 225 miles range, and park with 25 miles left at home.
    car B:
    charge to 90% of max range (225 miles) = 202,5 miles range, and park with 2,5 miles left at home. Hmm... Seems like a small buffer, I will have to charge to more then 90% to have more buffers in the bottom.

    So yes, car A is still the better choice - all else been equal. I can stop charging before the battery is fully charged, and have a bit extra when I come home.
    ... and since car A is the better both with and without the "user selectable buffer", it is the best overall and clearly shows that more Range == more Buffers ;)
    ... and yes, I know it is possible to come up with an example where your argument is significant, but... well... It is not realistic that a manufacture have that mush none-selectable buffers on their battery with a range over 200 miles EPA.


    Your kindly welcome - I think, maybe? Hmmm...
     
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  11. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    This exercise might make sense after some real-world experience with one of the cars after its 'norms' are established. Voting now would be based on 2 wild guesses.
    --
     
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  12. ggnykk

    ggnykk Active Member

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    Yup, those two drag cd are correct. M3 is a lot better in aero.
     
  13. ccutrer

    ccutrer Member

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    A moot point for you. The Superchargers I use are 147 miles apart, with a NET altitude change of 700 ft (probably a few thousand total cause of all the ups and down; I don't know how to get the total with an online tool), and a speed limit of 80mph for 100% of the distance between them. In an X 90D, I can't make it in 95° weather (so lots of A/C), starting at a ~90% charge (and no, I'm not waiting the additional 30-45 minutes to get to 100%), while still keeping up with other traffic at 85mph. I have to slow down to low 70s at best, and draft behind semis. Heaven help if I ever had to pull a trailer on this route. I'd probably be stuck going 40mph. So, both battery size and drag coefficient is very very important to me. I tire of the thinking that "my situation works just fine, so please don't bother designing or even talking about a bigger battery or better aerodynamics". Good for your situation. Tesla's goal is to make EVs practical for a much larger range of situations so that more ICEs can be replaced.

    Now back to the point of the OP - yes, I expect the Model 3 to perform significantly better at rural highway speeds than the Bolt. I do agree that it is a moot point though, not because "640k, err, 200mi, is enough for anyone", but because there simply isn't a charging infrastructure to reasonably allow a Bolt to travel only 100-150 miles (guesstimated range at 70mph cause of awful aerodynamics) at a time. And remember that non-Tesla DC fast charging stations (where they do exist in major population centers) are usually in the range of 40-60kW. Half of Tesla's 120kW.
     
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  14. jsmay311

    jsmay311 Member

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    Bolt is rated at a 238 mile range (combined). And the relevant efficiency ratings are 119 MPGe combined and 110 MPGe highway. So, after some simple math, the highway-cycle rated range is:

    238 / 119 * 110 = 220 miles

    But then figure cruising at 70mph is faster and more energy intensive than the EPA highway test cycle. So I'd guesstimate the 70 mph cruise range is ~200 miles.

    The big unknowns here are the M3's final EPA ratings for range and efficiency. We know the combined EPA range will be >215 miles.

    So I'll guess 225 miles combined, 220* miles highway-cycle, 210 miles @ 70mph.

    *I assumed the M3 will have less of a difference between combined and highway ratings than the Bolt due to better aero. But keep in mind that the Bolt did far better in this category than anyone expected. 110 MPGe highway is the 2nd best highway efficiency of any BEV currently on the market (only trailing the 111 MPGe rating of the 22-kWh/81-mile version of the BMW i3). That's remarkable given that the Bolt's battery is ~2-3x bigger (i.e., heavier) than every other short-to-mid-range BEV.

    *The M3's highway efficiency will also depend in part on whether it has AWD. The EPA ratings of the Model S show a not-insignificant improvement for D versions. For example, the S60D has a 6% higher highway efficiency vs the S60.
     
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  15. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    • Informative x 1
  16. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    Combined MPGe is 119. The 123 was a typo that has been fixed.
     
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  17. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    The 'typo' was mine. My bad. I didn't realize my browser had saved some 'Personalize' settings I was playing around with before... I set the form back to its defaults, and this is the result instead:
    [​IMG]
    False alarm, and stuff. Still pretty OK.
     
    • Helpful x 1
  18. N5329K

    N5329K Member

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    Drag coefficient is not a particularly useful measuring stick for what is essentially a city car with an anxiety-reducing range margin built in. Call it a "city/suburban" car. That's an important market segment, but not one where vehicles spend a lot of time at highway speed where drag becomes important. I'd guess it'll be mostly car journalists who take it out for max-effort highway-speed legs.
    Robin
     
  19. Rashomon

    Rashomon Member

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    #19 Rashomon, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
    The M3 should take about 12kW of delivered mechanical power to maintain 70 mph. I suspect its base pack will have somewhere around 52 kWh of usable energy, so at 85 percent efficiency, it should go somewhere around 250 miles at 70. The Bolt requires about 17 kW at 70, so with 58 kWh of usable energy, it should go about 200 miles at the same efficiency. The difference gets considerably worse as you go faster. At 80, the Bolt requires about 25kW, while the M3 requires only what the Bolt required at 70: 17kW. The M3 goes about 210 miles at 80 mph, while the Bolt can range only 160 miles.

    It does make you think what the 70 mph highway range of the M3 with the largest optional pack will be, assuming it's 30 percent bigger than the standard pack. I'd bet around 325 miles. And the 60 mph range could be over 400 miles!
     
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  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    I hope you are right, but I came up with 13.5 kW for air plus road resistance.
     
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