Poll: How often should autopilot alert us to hold the wheel?

[chronopc]

This.

Somebody runs into a firetruck and everyone shouts: Keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention!!!

In the next thread: I'm annoyed that the car wants me to keep my hands on the wheel, how can I get around this?

It's easier said than done. It took me awhile to figure out how to hold it for the torque sensor to pick it up. If I could hold it anyway I wanted then I wouldn't care how often the nag is.

 

[efusco]

Hold the wheel correctly and it never nags at all. Hard to be less frequent than that.

Define "correctly". Any more keeping steady pressure is insufficient. Even keeping your hands at 10 & 2 (or 7 & 9 as is now recommended), on a straight stretch of highway is insufficient to prevent the nag...you have to actively wiggle/jiggle or otherwise move the wheel to the point you feel a slight resistance to prevent it. That's not "correctly" IMO.

 

[Twiglett]

Define "correctly". Any more keeping steady pressure is insufficient. Even keeping your hands at 10 & 2 (or 7 & 9 as is now recommended), on a straight stretch of highway is insufficient to prevent the nag...you have to actively wiggle/jiggle or otherwise move the wheel to the point you feel a slight resistance to prevent it. That's not "correctly" IMO.

Sorry but there are so many threads about this it’s crazy.
Do we really have to say, yet again, that it’s a torque sensor, not a hand sensor?
Where you put your hands on the wheel is your business, the car can’t tell. Put them at 12/6 or one hand on 7:45 - it doesn’t care.
All it cares about if feeling you slightly resist it’s movements - end of story. It only needs the lightest of touches with the latest firmware, but still needs it.
Remember it’s nagging more because all those attention seeking youtubers keep showing the world we can’t be trusted with nice things.

Edit to add
Remember the comment from Elon that most EAP accidents are from longer term owners. They are the problem because they’ve experienced autopilot doing really well and embue it with capabilities it just doesn’t have, then they stop paying attention and run into things - then blame autopilot.

 

[MIT_S60]

Hold the wheel correctly and it never nags at all. Hard to be less frequent than that.

Here is the "correct" way to hold the steering wheel as defined by the NHTSA:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/steeringtechniques.pdf

• Hand Position
  • Both hands should be placed outside of the steering wheel on opposite sides.
  • Your grip should be firm, yet gentle.
  • Use your fingers instead of the palms of your hands and keep your thumbs up along the face of the steering wheel.
  • Never turn the wheel while gripping it from the inside of its rim.

Can you please show me where Tesla describes what the "correct" way to hold the steering wheel is?

This.

Somebody runs into a firetruck and everyone shouts: Keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention!!!

In the next thread: I'm annoyed that the car wants me to keep my hands on the wheel, how can I get around this?

Here's my dilemma: I'm holding the steering wheel and paying attention to the road, but my car keeps giving warning messages to "Apply light force to the steering wheel". You can hold the steering wheel and pay attention, yet the car doesn't register enough force to consider your hands are actually on the steering wheel, and thus nags you multiple times per minute, which requires looking down at the information cluster, applying extra force to the steering wheel, holding for a second or two while staring at the information cluster until the message clears, then look back up and regain focus on the road. This is the problem that Tesla introduced in 2018.21.9 which MANY of us are encountering (and YES, we ARE HOLDING the steering wheel AND paying attention to the road).

I actually have no problem with nags being used to check I'm still alive and awake. But you don't need a heartbeat every 15 seconds to check this. And this nag should be dependent upon surroundings (more traffic = more nags, less traffic on fully divided freeway = less nags). In AP's current state, I guarantee you there are plenty of people using "defeat devices" as simple as water bottles. At the end of the day, the driver is responsible for AutoPilot's behavior, not Tesla.

 

[roblab]

Hold the wheel correctly and it never nags at all. Hard to be less frequent than that.

And people disagree??!! They want to hold the wheel incorrectly? Or is it they don't want to hold it at all? How did they ever get a license in the first place? "I don't think we should have to stop at a red light. I'm not going to do it." Or, "Why should we be restricted to only one side of the road?" Or, "The car is supposed to stop by itself, so I can..." whatever.

To drive the car, you're supposed to have your hands on the wheel. It isn't autopilot, it's driver assist. Get a life.

 

[Twiglett]

Here is the "correct" way to hold the steering wheel as defined by the NHTSA:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/steeringtechniques.pdf

• Hand Position
  • Both hands should be placed outside of the steering wheel on opposite sides.
  • Your grip should be firm, yet gentle.
  • Use your fingers instead of the palms of your hands and keep your thumbs up along the face of the steering wheel.
  • Never turn the wheel while gripping it from the inside of its rim.

Can you please show me where Tesla describes what the "correct" way to hold the steering wheel is?



Here's my dilemma: I'm holding the steering wheel and paying attention to the road, but my car keeps giving warning messages to "Apply light force to the steering wheel". You can hold the steering wheel and pay attention, yet the car doesn't register enough force to consider your hands are actually on the steering wheel, and thus nags you multiple times per minute, which requires looking down at the information cluster, applying extra force to the steering wheel, holding for a second or two while staring at the information cluster until the message clears, then look back up and regain focus on the road. This is the problem that Tesla introduced in 2018.21.9 which MANY of us are encountering (and YES, we ARE HOLDING the steering wheel AND paying attention to the road).

I actually have no problem with nags being used to check I'm still alive and awake. But you don't need a heartbeat every 15 seconds to check this. And this nag should be dependent upon surroundings (more traffic = more nags, less traffic on fully divided freeway = less nags). In AP's current state, I guarantee you there are plenty of people using "defeat devices" as simple as water bottles. At the end of the day, the driver is responsible for AutoPilot's behavior, not Tesla.

You are of course perfectly entitled to dislike my posts, but it doesn't change what are facts regarding autopilot (I know pedants prefer Autosteer, but hey)
In no order

• the car cannot tell where you place your hand(s) on the wheel - it really doesn't care one bit about 10-2 etc. NHTSA guidelines assume you're driving, not being assisted by the car.
• the car only uses a torque sensor to detect your hands. Maybe Model 3 can use the inside camera.
• Elon highlighted longer term owners as the most frequent demographic in autopilot related accidents

I wholeheartedly agree with you it is about personal responsibility, but Tesla also have to take steps to prevent accidents or be accused of being reckless. The banning of Autopilot Buddy for example. Tesla have no choice.

 

[Runt8]

Here is the "correct" way to hold the steering wheel as defined by the NHTSA:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/steeringtechniques.pdf

• Hand Position
  • Both hands should be placed outside of the steering wheel on opposite sides.
  • Your grip should be firm, yet gentle.
  • Use your fingers instead of the palms of your hands and keep your thumbs up along the face of the steering wheel.
  • Never turn the wheel while gripping it from the inside of its rim.

Can you please show me where Tesla describes what the "correct" way to hold the steering wheel is?



Here's my dilemma: I'm holding the steering wheel and paying attention to the road, but my car keeps giving warning messages to "Apply light force to the steering wheel". You can hold the steering wheel and pay attention, yet the car doesn't register enough force to consider your hands are actually on the steering wheel, and thus nags you multiple times per minute, which requires looking down at the information cluster, applying extra force to the steering wheel, holding for a second or two while staring at the information cluster until the message clears, then look back up and regain focus on the road. This is the problem that Tesla introduced in 2018.21.9 which MANY of us are encountering (and YES, we ARE HOLDING the steering wheel AND paying attention to the road).

I actually have no problem with nags being used to check I'm still alive and awake. But you don't need a heartbeat every 15 seconds to check this. And this nag should be dependent upon surroundings (more traffic = more nags, less traffic on fully divided freeway = less nags). In AP's current state, I guarantee you there are plenty of people using "defeat devices" as simple as water bottles. At the end of the day, the driver is responsible for AutoPilot's behavior, not Tesla.

“Correct” being the way you need to hold it with regards to autopilot not nagging you, which doesn’t imply that you are holding it incorrectly in the larger picture of driving safely.

 

[TheLocNar]

As soon as you take your hands off it.

 

[chronopc]

How long does nag last before it disengages EAP?

 

[efusco]

Sorry but there are so many threads about this it’s crazy.
Do we really have to say, yet again, that it’s a torque sensor, not a hand sensor?
Where you put your hands on the wheel is your business, the car can’t tell. Put them at 12/6 or one hand on 7:45 - it doesn’t care.
All it cares about if feeling you slightly resist it’s movements - end of story. It only needs the lightest of touches with the latest firmware, but still needs it.
Remember it’s nagging more because all those attention seeking youtubers keep showing the world we can’t be trusted with nice things.

Edit to add
Remember the comment from Elon that most EAP accidents are from longer term owners. They are the problem because they’ve experienced autopilot doing really well and embue it with capabilities it just doesn’t have, then they stop paying attention and run into things - then blame autopilot.

Yes, it's a torque sensor...but now unidirectional torque isn't adequate (as I pointed out in my posts). Also, you can add all the torque you want, but on a straightish stretch of road, since it requires bi-directional torque input now, you have to not just hold the wheel, you have to manually manipulate it on a regular basis in both directions. It's a pain in the ass. Your flippant "just hold the wheel properly" comment dramatically downplays the reality of using AP on long drives and the frequency of necessity of manual input by the driver just to prove you're awake and active. Previously all that was necessary was to maintain unidirectional torque which was fairly easy to do without multiple nags triggering.

 

[insaneoctane]

Tesla probably needs a more specific sensor for EAP but they don't have it in all these cars. It nags me sometimes even when my hands ARE ACTUALLY on the wheel. Flamers, I know it requires torque, but attentively holding the wheel does not always result in a counter torque. That is a problem in my book.

I think the nag frequency at low speeds is about right. At freeway speeds its far too frequent. Match the high speed to the low speed or retro better sensors.

I really like the tiered approach... Quick reaction to nags puts things back to where they used to be- you are proving your attentiveness...longer delay in reactions to nags should immediately put you in EAP jail and make you slowly work back out. What should EAP Jail look like? Look no further than the current implementation....

 

[efusco]

Tesla probably needs a more specific sensor for EAP but they don't have it in all these cars. It nags me sometimes even when my hands ARE ACTUALLY on the wheel. Flamers, I know it requires torque, but attentively holding the wheel does not always result in a counter torque. That is a problem in my book.

I think the nag frequency at low speeds is about right. At freeway speeds its far too frequent. Match the high speed to the low speed or retro better sensors.

I really like the tiered approach... Quick reaction to nags puts things back to where they used to be- you are proving your attentiveness...longer delay in reactions to nags should immediately put you in EAP jail and make you slowly work back out. What should EAP Jail look like? Look no further than the current implementation....

I think that's a pretty good idea...I guess one could argue differently, that on freeways you're more likely to loose focus due to the monotony, but you're right the frequency is ridiculous now. There has to be some way to balance this out.

 

[diplomat33]

Doing so more testing with AP today. Yeah, if you rest your left hand on the left side of the steering wheel you can avoid any nags at all thanks to the torque the system is feeling from your hand placement.

There are times when I am cruising on the highway with AP that it is handling things so well, I wish the system would let me go hands free so I do look forward to the day where there are no nags at all. Hopefully, once the confidence level of AP is high enough, Tesla will feel like it can handle highway cruising so well that the nags are not needed because it can safely go hands free. I hope that happens although perhaps it will only be available with the FSD package.

 

[slipnslider]

With the Model 3 they should get rid of it completely.

They should replace it with a neural network that measures engagement. They might be able to do that with the interior facing camera.

No. I do not look foward to a future where I have cameras on me at all times so computers can try and figure out what I'm thinking and doing.

 

[slipnslider]

Somebody runs into a firetruck and everyone shouts: Keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention!!!

No someone runs into a firetruck and everyone shouts: How the hell can a car covered in cameras and radar equipment run into a parked fire truck?

 

[chronopc]

No someone runs into a firetruck and everyone shouts: How the hell can a car covered in cameras and radar equipment run into a parked fire truck?

Not sure having hands on the wheel would have helped in that situation. Eye on the road and foot on the brakes might have helped.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

No. I do not look foward to a future where I have cameras on me at all times so computers can try and figure out what I'm thinking and doing.

A future without checkout lines at the store?
A future without pedestrians getting hit by cars?

I certainly agree that computers figuring out what you're thinking would be scary, but there would be no need for a camera to see you if it knew what you were thinking.

I guess this is a case of one mans dystopian is another mans utopian.

Why do I want this future (minus knowing what you're thinking)?

My Tesla doesn't know whether I'm paying attention to the road or not. It has no sensor technology to determine that with any accuracy. It only has a sensor it can use to imply that I am. At it's best it's naive, and at it's worst it's rude.

My Roomba isn't aware of me, and it makes it kind of pain to get breakfast ready. Or I have to wait till it's finished with it's job.

My Robomower isn't aware of me either, and I have to schedule yard work around it. This essentially gives it the weekend off from it's duties.

The other day while biking I glitched out somehow taking a left hand turn a little too close to an oncoming car. I didn't mean to as another car appeared in my path so I couldn't the corner like I wanted. I didn't think much of it until I heard the expletives from the driver as he went by. If that car had been autonomous then I could freely do that without worrying at all. I'm not opposed to bullying a self-driving car. Or at the very least I wouldn't feel the same about it as I did cutting off a human.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

No someone runs into a firetruck and everyone shouts: How the hell can a car covered in cameras and radar equipment run into a parked fire truck?

As I understand it all the firetruck/police car accidents have been AP1 related.

AP1 doesn't have cameras all over, and is largely limited to the functionality provided by MobileEye. The same technology used by lots of other manufactures.

The failure is completely on human drivers not understanding the limitations of the system. Either by their own failure, or by the failure of the media/Tesla/etc.

 

[slipnslider]

A future without checkout lines at the store?
A future without pedestrians getting hit by cars?

I certainly agree that computers figuring out what you're thinking would be scary, but there would be no need for a camera to see you if it knew what you were thinking.

I guess this is a case of one mans dystopian is another mans utopian.

Why do I want this future (minus knowing what you're thinking)?

My Tesla doesn't know whether I'm paying attention to the road or not. It has no sensor technology to determine that with any accuracy. It only has a sensor it can use to imply that I am. At it's best it's naive, and at it's worst it's rude.

My Roomba isn't aware of me, and it makes it kind of pain to get breakfast ready. Or I have to wait till it's finished with it's job.

My Robomower isn't aware of me either, and I have to schedule yard work around it. This essentially gives it the weekend off from it's duties.

The other day while biking I glitched out somehow taking a left hand turn a little too close to an oncoming car. I didn't mean to as another car appeared in my path so I couldn't the corner like I wanted. I didn't think much of it until I heard the expletives from the driver as he went by. If that car had been autonomous then I could freely do that without worrying at all. I'm not opposed to bullying a self-driving car. Or at the very least I wouldn't feel the same about it as I did cutting off a human.

It's been proven that the act of observing changes the behavior of the observed. A world where we're always being watched is a world where we all constantly feel and act like we're being watched. Is that a world you want to live in? Yes you'll be safer. Because everyone will behave like robot autonomotons. Being safe shouldnt be the highest priority in life.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

It's been proven that the act of observing changes the behavior of the observed. A world where we're always being watched is a world where we all constantly feel and act like we're being watched. Is that a world you want to live in? Yes you'll be safer. Because everyone will behave like robot autonomotons. Being safe shouldnt be the highest priority in life.

What constitutes being watched?

The Cadillac super cruise sensor is a closed system. Meaning that it doesn't upload the data, and humans don't have access to that data. I don't see it as being anymore invasive than a presence sensor used in offices to determine when to turn on/off the lights.

What makes it any different than any other sensor?

The Model 3 interior camera is far more invasive in that it can be used to transmit information from the car to the Tesla mothership.

We do live in rather dark times RIGHT now, but it's not because of computers.

It's because humans are actively collecting and distributing recorded video data of other humans without permission or consent.

Just today word got out that an Uber/Lyft driver was secretly recording and transmitting video/audio from inside his camera where people could comment on his passengers.

A week ago or ago there was a good article written on how people in todays world are trampling on privacy of others by sharing videos of strangers while creating narratives about their life or the situation that they observed. You're at the mercy of the concoction that someone else creates. Sometimes it's fair when you're an a-hole that calls the police on a lemonade stand, and sometimes it's not fair when all you did was flirt with a seat mate on a plane. Either way strangers are talking about you simply because some interesting narrative was created about you.

The other day a director got canned because of something he wrote on twitter around a decade ago. It didn't matter that he was a different person now days. It didn't matter that it was completely taken out of context of when it was created.

One of my first Tesla experiences was a call from my service center wanting to know more about something I posted on here. but, I wasn't ready to involve the SC because I was still collecting data on it (some rattles). To say it was a bit spooky is putting it lightly. Others on here saw it as good customer service, and I saw it as creepy unwanted behavior.

I certainly agree that the feeling of being watched does change the behavior of the observed. But, I would argue that it's only a temporary thing until what's doing the watching is so unintrusive that it goes unnoticed, and so useful that we don't mind it watching us. A GPS in our cars is a perfect example of this. You can't really go anywhere without that trip being logged even if you never entered the destination in.

I'm far more okay with camera's being used to assist computers with machine vision tasks than I am with human meatbags being all emotional about what some video tells them.

Siri doesn't decrease the frequency or intensity of my farts. At least not until FB starts to give me Antacid ads.