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Poll: Scroll Wheel Movement -- What's Intuitive And Perhaps Why

Discussion in 'Model S: User Interface' started by Andyw2100, Jan 16, 2017.

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Do you find the scroll wheel movement intuitive or counter-intuitive and do you use Windows or Mac?

  1. I find the current scroll wheel movement intuitive and I use mainly Mac computers.

    7 vote(s)
    13.2%
  2. I find the current scroll wheel movement counter-intuitive and I use mainly Mac computers.

    6 vote(s)
    11.3%
  3. I find the current scroll wheel movement intuitive and I use mainly Windows computers.

    17 vote(s)
    32.1%
  4. I find the current scroll wheel movement counter-intuitive and I use mainly Windows computers.

    9 vote(s)
    17.0%
  5. I find the current scroll wheel movement intuitive and I use both Mac and Windows computers.

    7 vote(s)
    13.2%
  6. I find the current scroll wheel movement counter-intuitive and I use both Mac and Windows computers.

    7 vote(s)
    13.2%
  1. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    So...

    I had started a thread about possibly requesting that Tesla provide an option to allow the scroll wheel to move opposite the way it does now. The result was the letter below that I sent to [email protected].

    In the thread, it was suggested that the intuitiveness of the scroll wheel movement might be related to a Windows vs. Mac issue. I thought it would be interesting to start this poll, to see if that is the case or not.

    Here is the original thread:

    Scroll Wheel Reversal


    And below is the letter that resulted from it. It may be helpful if you read the letter before answering the poll, so that you completely understand the issue.

    Thanks!

    --
    Dear Sirs and Madams,

    I am writing with a suggestion that I believe would increase the scroll wheel functionality for a large number of Tesla drivers.

    Currently the scroll wheels move the “focus” down or up to the item above or below the current selection. This is counter-intuitive to how I, and many others expect the scroll wheels to function. (Support for that below.) The result of this is that we are having to constantly think about what the scroll wheel will do, and if we don’t concentrate, it does the opposite of what we are expecting it to do.

    A simple solution would be for Tesla to offer an option to have the scroll wheels function the other way when moving between selections. Instead of moving the “focus”, the scroll wheels would move the “selection.” So to bring the selection at the top down, one would scroll down. (Currently one needs to scroll up to bring the focus up to that selection, which results in the selection moving down.)

    The option could be called something like “Scroll Wheel Movement” and the options could be “Scroll Wheels Move Focus” and “Scroll Wheels Move Selection.” The selection should, of course, be tied to the driver profile.

    Before writing with this idea, I started a thread on the Tesla Motors Club Forums, to see whether or not others were having issues similar to mine, or whether I might be unique in considering the current scroll wheel setup counter-intuitive. I will provide a link to that thread. It turns out support for my suggestion is strong, as many people –do—find the current scroll wheel functions counter-intuitive.

    Link to thread: Scroll Wheel Reversal

    Finally, if you were to implement my suggestion, naturally the scroll wheel functionality would not change for functions like raising and lowering the volume or the fan speed.

    Thanks for considering my suggestion.

    Sincerely,
     
  2. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Grouchy

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    I answered Option 1 but I'm not sure I find it "intuitive" as much as I'm just used to it... And I don't think if reversed I'd find it any more or less intuitive but I'd get used to it in fairly short order.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    Cool. Thanks for the explanation.

    Oh, and before anyone mentions it, I am aware of the typo in the thread title. I have already written a mod, to ask that it be corrected. If by the time you read this, you don't see a typo in the thread title, that means it was corrected before you read this post! :)
     
  4. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Grouchy

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    You know what I'd like to see for the scroll wheels? Scroll wheels that don't sometimes take 5 or 6 movements through the "detents" (clicks) before actually responding. They kind of feel cheap when this happens.

    Please tell me I'm not the only one who notices this. (And sorry, not to derail your thread Andy...)

    Mike
     
  5. woof

    woof Model X 75D Blue, 6 seats

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    It's all about the mental model the designers have. When MacOS (well it was called OS X at the time) changed their scrolling model, it was all about changing the model of what exactly was "moving". Consider a web page as a small rectangular viewport suspended over a large image. When one scrolls, is one moving the viewport or moving the image? Before the change, Apple's model (and Windows and most window managers I've seen) the scrollbars, mouse, and keyboard was all about moving the viewport. So if one moves the viewport "down", it appears as if the background image moves "up". After the change, Apple's model was keeping the viewport static and moving the image "behind it" up and down, so the mouse was connected to image, not the viewport, so by pushing the image "up" behind the static viewport, it appears the image moves "up". Scrolling to the "bottom" of an image thus means pushing the image all the way to top so the viewport is at the bottom. In MacOS, one can still move the viewport directly by dragging the scroll bars.

    Apple made this change because on the iPhone and iPad one appeared to directly touch the image, so one's finger was directly connected to the image and they wanted to make the touchpad on the Macbook's work the same way. This required "reversing" the way it used to work.

    So on the Tesla with a scroll wheel, consider a model where with physical wheel is considered directly connected to a piece of paper. The bottom of the wheel moves in the opposite direction of the top of the wheel. Using one's finger to push the wheel "up", the back of the wheel moves "down", which drags the paper down, so the top of the paper moves "down", and the image on the paper appears to move "up". Now consider the model where the top of the wheel pretends to be the paper, so pushing the wheel "up" moves the paper "up" and the image moves "down".

    Which is correct? Neither...it's all about the mental model the designers had at the time.
     
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  6. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    My point, and the reason I requested the option to allow the scroll wheels' function to work either way, is that while neither may be "correct" it is likely that one or the other is what individuals find intuitive. If the current movement is not intuitive for you, you wind up having to think about what is going to happen whenever you use the scroll wheels. Just check out some of the comments in the thread I linked to. For those of us for whom the current setup is not intuitive, we struggle with it, and get it wrong --A LOT!--

    It should be a simple addition to allow users to choose which of the two methods they prefer. This way everyone can be happy.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. f-stop

    f-stop Member

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    #7 f-stop, Jan 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
    I voted the 1st, although I'll also add that when I first got the car I was a bit confused about the direction to turn the scrollwheel to open the sunroof. Looking at it again, it seems to make sense - scrolling up increases the sunroof %open value, just like how scrolling up increases the volume of the media player.

    I'll also add that as a long time Mac and iOS user (since beginning days of both), on my Mac I keep the mouse/trackpad setting to the original old-fashioned (vs newer "Natural") scroll direction, i.e. scrolling the mouse/wheel up moves the focus up. The newer "Natural" scrolling direction on Mac OS is intended to make things seem more iOS-like on the Mac (the description of the setting says "Scroll direction: Natural - content tracks finger movement")

    but to me I find that "Natural" scrolling direction confusing on a Mac, even though I also use iOS also and find the scrolling there perfectly intuitive too (ie touching and pushing your finger up on the page pushes the page up/focus down). To me the having different models for a wheel/mouse vs touch interface make perfect sense, although you could also say it's a matter of what you're used to.

    but just like the Mac has a setting so each user can set the scrolling direction, it probably makes sense to give this option to Tesla owners too

    edit: just thought of something else - it would probably make your poll too complicated, but I think people's viewpoint of intuitive or not might also depend on if they primarily use a touch-based device, iOS or other...
     
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  8. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    So...a very quick summary of the early responses:

    Mac Users - 3 intuitive, 1 counter-intuitive
    Windows Users - 2 intuitive, 5 counter-intuitive
    Users of both Mac and Windows - 1 intuitive, 2 counter-intuitive

    So with these clearly not yet statistically significant numbers, it looks like:

    a) @ohmman's theory could be accurate, and
    b) there really is a need for the option, as 8 out of 14 respondents find the current movement counter-intuitive

    I'll continue to provide these little summaries as more people respond to the poll.
     
  9. BerTX

    BerTX Active Member

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    But if @f-stop is correct, and Mac users can select how their devices work, then some of the data are questionable for the Mac user responses. You don't know how they have their devices set.
     
  10. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    There was no assertion that this little poll would provide scientifically valid data that would hold up to scrutiny. We're just trying to get a rough idea if the current set up may be more intuitive for Mac users than for Windows users.

    The suggestion to provide both options has already been sent to Tesla. The fact that Macs do offer both options--a point I also made in my initial post in the original thread--provides support for the idea that people feel strongly about this one way or the other, and that a good solution is to offer both options, to keep everyone happy.
     
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  11. f-stop

    f-stop Member

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    Just a further note on this particular point - I believe for all recent Macs and certainly all recent Mac laptops, the default scroll direction is set to "Natural" - i.e. to behave like iOS / touch devices = opposite to how Tesla scroll wheels behave. Don't recall when they made the change but it was sometime after the introduction of iOS 10yrs ago. I'm certain this was a conscious decision so that people used to an iPhone/iPad buying their first Mac wouldn't be confused by the "old" way to scroll.

    My point is people's view of intuitive scroll wheel direction may have more to do with whether they're more used to touch devices or if they grew up with computers way back before when a GUI and mice were first introduced (like me).

    That all said, an option setting still makes sense.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    As of this minute--

    10 votes for intuitive and 10 votes for counter-intuitive.

    6 of the 10 intuitive votes coming from Mac users and 5 of the 10 counter-intuitive votes coming from Windows users.

    We really need to get more people to participate in this poll! I'll post about it in an appropriate thread, to see if that helps.
     
  13. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    Voted counter-intuitive.

    I use both PCs and Macs, and have the Mac set to reverse the scolling... which drives my wife nuts when she goes to use my Mac computer and tries to scroll "backwards".

    I also remapped the keyboard to be more PC-like. Life is so much better this way.
     
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  14. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    Overall vote totals still relatively close, as of about 11:00 PM January 17.

    Intuitive - 15
    Counter-intuitive - 12
     
  15. cpa

    cpa Active Member

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    I use Windows. I did not vote. I am not sure what scrolling is. But those little wheels on the steering wheel spokes are not intuitive at all for me. In fact, I find the entire process counter-intuitive. The only time that I used them, I spent 15 minutes on the telephone with Tesla to have them walk me through what I was supposed to do. I doubt that I could recreate what I did if Tesla changes the display on the dashboard in a future update.

    Tesla should give us an option to disable them and make any changes to the dash display on the touchscreen.
     
  16. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    The basic usage is not all that difficult. You press in and hold in order to permanently change the selection of what to display. Then scroll to make the selection.

    The intuitive / counter-intuitive that this poll refers to is which way to scroll in order to make the selection.

    Play with the wheels a bit, and I think you'll get it.

    Good luck!
     
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  17. Dithermaster

    Dithermaster Member

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    Not to open a can of worms, but if they do add a "scroll wheel direction" checkbox (and I hope they do!), I really hope they reverse only the right things. For example, audio volume, fan speed, temperature should not reverse; "up" should always be "more". They should make it reverse the choices you get when holding down the scroll wheel (I think that's the action that prompted all these discussions). Gray-area items would be things like sunroof position. I've gotten used to "up" being "more open" but I could probably get used to it the other way around (maybe). I can't think of many other uses off the top of my head, but I know they are there (like phone menu options, etc.). Someone will have to look at every usage and figure out if it should be reversed with this setting or not.
     
  18. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    I did include this line in my message:

    --
    Finally, if you were to implement my suggestion, naturally the scroll wheel functionality would not change for functions like raising and lowering the volume or the fan speed.
    --

    My hope would be that if Tesla decides to do this, they will spend enough time on it to get it right.
     
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  19. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    Given the high-school dropouts they now have doing all the UI work, don't hold your breath of them getting it right.

    None of the software developers actually test their code in the real, driving, car. Do they even have drivers' licenses?
     
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  20. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    Well, if they try it, and get it wrong, we can help them fix it. The issue is even getting them to try. My guess is that this would be an extremely low priority, right up there with the way Tesla seems to feel about providing a reasonable set of features for the audio system / player.
     
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