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Poll: Should Tesla use in-cabin camera in Model 3 for hands free driving?

Should Tesla use in-cabin camera in Model 3 for hands free driving?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 17 58.6%
  • No!

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • Don't care either way!

    Votes: 5 17.2%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
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diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
12,708
18,668
USA
After the recent article about yet another Model 3 driver asleep on AP and apparently using a weight on the steering wheel to fool the steering torque, it is making me think more and more that Tesla really should consider using the in-cabin camera in the Model 3 to monitor driver attention and allow hands free driving. Now, I am aware that Musk is against the idea because he wants to focus on just getting to L4/5 autonomy where driver attention is irrelevant. So he sees a driver attention system using the camera as a waste of time and resources. But I think there are good reasons for and against the system. I outline them below.

Some main reasons FOR:

1) No major cost in time or resources
The in-cabin camera is already there. So no new hardware is necessary. Tesla would just need to do the software part and push out the feature as an over the air update. And the software for facial recognition is pretty common place now. It would not be a huge cost in time or resources.
2) Increased safety
Adding a driver attention system using the camera would increase safety since it would prevent people from cheating the nag system. It would also increase safety by providing an additional back up since you would have two systems, the torque and the camera to make sure the driver is alert. And we've certainly seen several instances where the torque system alone was not good enough. It could be argued that the only way to make sure that a driver is indeed paying attention to the road is by directly monitoring their face.
3) It would allow true hands-free driving in some instances
Like in other cars, using the camera to monitor the driver would allow for true hands-free driving in some instances. Tesla could design the feature to only activate hands-free driving in certain situations where AP or NOA have a high confidence such as routine driving on the highway with no or little traffic. And the feature could be designed to turn off hands-free driving when confidence is not high enough, such as city streets, difficult lane changes, on ramp off ramp maneuvers, busy traffic. This would allow AP to be a L3 autonomous system that would allow for true hands free driving when it is safe to do so. Plus, Tesla could gradually expand when hands-free driving is allowed as they improve AP towards FSD. This would be really nice for drivers I think.
4) It would serve as a nice stop gap until we get to FSD
Sure, eventually with FSD, monitoring driver attention will become unnecessary. But we are not there yet. So why not add this feature now to give owners hands-free driving and increased safety while we wait for FSD?

Some main reasons AGAINST:
1) The in-cabin camera may not be good enough to implement the system properly since it is not a IR camera and is not positioned in front of the driver. If true, then implementing the feature could prove difficult or flawed. In which case, it might not be worth it.
2) Only the Model 3 right now has the in-cabin camera which means that only the Model 3 would be able to get this feature. As a Model 3 owner, I admit that I am biased since I would benefit from the feature. I admit that it would put the Model S and X at a disadvantage. It would certainly suck for Model S and X owners that they can't get true hands-free driving even though they drive the more expensive car. Of course, Tesla could add an in-cabin camera for monitoring driver attention in the Model S/X refresh to fix this issue. That would even give the S and X refresh an additional demand bump.
3) Like Musk's argument, it could be argued that it is better to just focus on making AP more FSD and safer rather than spending resources on adding a driver attention system that ultimately will be unnecessary. After all, the sooner Tesla gets to FSD, the better.
4) There are better ways that Tesla could address the problem of cheats than to devote resources to a camera based driver monitoring system. For example, Tesla could probably just change the torque requirement via software update so that cheats like autopilot buddy don't work anymore.

Thoughts?
 
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A waist of programming resources. Tesla should continue all out efforts to get FSD completed and not divert attention to frivolous things.

Thanks for the reply. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Tesla should continue all out efforts to finish FSD but I am not sure that I would call a driver monitoring camera system "frivolous". if it prevents a driver from falling asleep on AP or allows drivers to have a more convenient and pleasant hands-free driving experience on the highway, I would not call that "frivolous". That would have a lot of value for a lot of people.
 
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Reactions: Jabbahop
Probably not for just one reason. The "hand check" likely will be eliminated soon. Also I don't think it's company's responsibility if someone just wants to cheat. You see people drive recklessly all the time. Some even drive over the cliff either unintentionally or intentionally. What anything any company did to prevent those? No and they shouldn't either.

I know the media will spread FUD and create sensational narratives whenever an Autopilot incident happens but I'm not sure it's a good thing to have that to dictate what the company do. They will find something else to attack you anyway. Just do the right thing imo.
 
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Reactions: DirtyT3sla
Probably not for just one reason. The "hand check" likely will be eliminated soon. Also I don't think it's company's responsibility if someone just wants to cheat. You see people drive recklessly all the time. Some even drive over the cliff either unintentionally or intentionally. What any company did anything to prevent those? I know the media will spread FUD and create sensational narratives whenever an Autopilot incident happens but I'm not sure it's a good thing to have that to dictate what the company do. They will find something else to attack you anyway. Just do the right thing imo.

Good point about driver responsibility. Certainly, when someone knowingly cheats by using illegal devices like autopilot buddy, that's not Tesla's fault. Although, I am not sure just how soon the "hand check" will be eliminated though. On the highway maybe "soon" but it will probably be awhile before Tesla removes the nag for city driving. After all, AP needs to be really really really safe before the nag can be removed. I guess from my perspective, I do use AP responsibly. On some drives that I know AP can handle it perfectly, I wish I could go true hands free with no nags, since I do still pay attention.
 
I voted in favor even though as a Model X driver I would not benefit from this.

The biggest reason is simply the potential for an improved user-experience for the driver. Not that we needs hands-free necessarily but because the hand recognition with the torque sensor is poor and a camera-based system at least has the potential to be better (though without IR and driver facing camera that remains to be seen). The torque sensing also encourages single-hand driving instead of both hands on wheel due to the way dual hands tend to balance out the torque necessary which is not good.

I would also welcome a better touch sensor on the steering wheel as it would be a step towards the same direction if a camera-based system is not possible. The torque sensing really is the worst solution to this so any better solution would be welcomed.

We are still a long way from removing nags...
 
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Reactions: diplomat33
"Hand check" is really unnecessary either. It serves no purpose other than to provide Tesla with an evidence if the driver wasn't paying attention. Eye check is not any better. Starring right ahead does not mean you're paying attention to the traffic. You do that with your brain not your eyes. I wouldn't mind to sign an agreement to release Tesla of responsibility if they will allow me to not put my hand on the steering wheel. I of course will still pay full attention and not do any foolish things.
 
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Reactions: DirtyT3sla
Well I think those expecting literal FSD anytime in the next few years are going to be really disappointed. So I'm going to vote yes for this one. I think anything that improves on the irritating steering nags is worth pursuing for current AP and so called FSD. Whether or not the camera already fitted is suitable for the job is another question.
 
If it reduces the nag interval under some conditions then I'm all for it.

There are other cool things that could be done with it too: include it in Sentry mode when a break in is detected, or even simple face ID for setting driver profiles, history, etc (could even make that portable between cars).

IMO, if they wanted to scrap it, they would have done so with the introduction of HW3.
 
I think Tesla is waiting out the Model S/X refresh before moving fully into this space. The same seems to be happening with their gaming platform that seems to be gravitating towards something beyond the vertical screen...

Once they have the same camera and horizontal screen on the Model S/X expect more making use of the camera etc. Video calls would be one use too.

After all even the MCU2 on Model S/X is labelled internally as ”transitional”.
 
The only person that knows if the driver is paying attention is the driver. You can have your hands on the wheel and be staring straight out the windshield, but if you're daydream or thinking of something else, you could make a mistake.
 
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Reactions: CarlK
A lot of these arguments smack of the "guns don't people, people kill people" argument. Yes that's true, but that doesn't preclude Tesla from implementing technology to increase the likelihood that a driver will pay attention to the road and to reduce the ease with which these safety devices can be defeated. That's good for everyone. Yes none of these solutions are perfect, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be implemented.

I would love for them to enable the camera. I usually pay attention to the road at highway speeds anyway. I don't understand why my hand needs to be on the steering wheel - that to me is far more annoying than just looking forward every now and then. And until Tesla can literally read my mind and know with certainty that I'm paying attention, tracking my eye movements and making sure I'm looking at the road is a better proxy for attention than just resting my hand on the wheel.

BTW - no chance we'll have hands-off/eyes-off in the near future. And no way we'll be able to "waive" anything b/c not every accident is a single-car accident - and society won't tolerate it. If Tesla did come out with a waiver, it'd be an awful strategic move, as that would cause every state to start requiring a driver monitoring system and Tesla would lose command of the situation.
 
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Reactions: Daniel in SD
Considering how many lunatics post on this forum about using oranges to fool the AP system and other insanely dangerous behaviour, they definitely should get that camera working as soon as possible.
 
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Reactions: diplomat33