Poll: what company is leading in driving automation?

[Tam]

Manual driving isnt an autonomous system. It seems...well.... stupid to use that as an example of why using how widely an autonomous driving feature is available is flawed. Nice try tho.

If a vaccine is only available to one person who cares how effective it is, the rest of us will all be dead.

SAE J3016 Levels of Driving Automation includes from 0 to 5.

0 means manual, 5 means complete, most automation a standard can grant you.

So, which level should be included in widely available to consumers?

Tesla L2? L2 requires human to drive "even if your feet are off the pedals and you are not steering".

So just because Tesla can sell the system L2 that requires a human driver, it's leading?

In the meantime, Waymo L4 allows a blind person with no one else to have a driver's license nor good eyesight and somehow Waymo has not achieved Tesla L2 leading technological achievement that requires a licensed driver still?

 

[diplomat33]

Do we get a gold star after we've discussed it for 10 years?

I'd be happy with just getting the FSD Beta button.

 

[qdeathstar]

SAE J3016 Levels of Driving Automation includes from 0 to 5.

0 means manual, 5 means complete, most automation a standard can grant you.

So, which level should be included in widely available to consumers?

Tesla L2? L2 requires human to drive "even if your feet are off the pedals and you are not steering".

So just because Tesla can sell the system L2 that requires a human driver, it's leading?


View attachment 646686

In the meantime, Waymo L4 allows a blind person with no one else to have a driver's license nor good eyesight and somehow Waymo has not achieved Tesla L2 leading technological achievement that requires a licensed driver still?

no. But also yes. Emergency breaking available to all is more progress than level 5 available to one.

 

[Tam]

no. But also yes. Emergency breaking available to all is more progress than level 5 available to one.

Tesla L2 is leading is a hype, speculation, but not a proven fact.

City Streets (FSD beta as named by Tesla in DMV letters) testers are still reporting that their cars still hit the curbs because the system fails to make a wide enough turn.

Its hardware needs to be proven that it can reliably stop hitting fire trucks, police cars...

Robotaxi can earn your $30,000 a year is also a hype, a speculation, not a proven fact. It's based on the theory that Tesla hardware can stop hitting fire trucks, police cars, stationary objects and the curbs... but it's not proven.

Tesla's hardware issue needs to be dealt first. Pro-LIDAR says hitting stationary objects is a RADAR's limitation and it's an easy technological fix with the addition of LIDARS. Elon Musk says no, it's a crutch..."Anyone relying on lidar is doomed. DOOMED".

Waymo has proven that by using LIDARs it does not have Tesla's RADAR's issue of hitting stationary police cars, and that's a leading technological fact, and not a crutch.

 

[MasterchiefTS]

In think that in this moment is very difficult find an answer.
Tesla is working hard for AI and I think that it will be cool when coming out some final version. I think that not we will have FSD in 2022 or 2023, but for an series of reasons.

However Waymo working good but not public, I mean that you don't buy car with Waymo hardware.

Uber project could is big and amazing.

Cruise is a good position.

But in this moment the best community for AI is Tesla, I don't have doubt.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I went with Cruise because they're owned by GM, and GM provides a very solid L2 system to their customers in the form of SuperCruise.

So they're essentially covering L2 driving on one end, and L4 driving on the other. They're in the best position of being able to bring automated driving to the masses in a vehicle that can be leased. With Waymo you like won't be allowed to do anything except pay per ride or subscribe to X rides a month.

In any case I think we're looking at this the wrong way.

Instead of asking which company is ahead on driving automation we should be asking which country is. Which country will be the first to have wide scale L4 driving? I'd say China is.

 

[qdeathstar]

Tesla L2 is leading is a hype, speculation, but not a proven fact.

ok. But I didn’t say Tesla was leading. Are you framing arguments with the idea that Tesla fsd is pure hype then selectively analyzing the systems to back up a conclusion you already made. Kinda like your post doesn’t really respond to my post but just regurgitates what you already believe?

Waymo has proven that by using LIDARs it does not have Tesla's RADAR's issue of hitting stationary police cars, and that's a leading technological fact, and not a crutch.

Cool. I understand you don’t like Tesla. That is irrelevant. Also I can’t buy waymo. So its irrelevant. Like air conditioning to a tribesman in an African forest.

 

[Tam]

Cool. I understand you don’t like Tesla...

What I don't like is the lack of the tool to avoid colliding stationary obstacles when the technology of LIDAR has been there for years.

However, Waymo doesn't sell me its LIDAR, so Tesla with its cool AI is a consolation prize. That doesn't mean I don't like Tesla. I do, I just don't like the part of dying in an Autopilot accident with its cool AI if I made a mistake.

Also I can’t buy waymo. So its irrelevant. Like air conditioning to a tribesman in an African forest.

It's true that if a working technology is not sold then it's pretty much useless.

However, what more important is: Has anyone proven that Air Conditioning does work?

It does no good to think which company leads in making Air Conditioning work because now they can certainly blow the same ambient temperature air out and with the promise of AI and all the software, it will blow cold air this year!

So, the first step is who is ahead. The next step is to commercialize it.

 

[qdeathstar]

What I don't like is the lack of the tool to avoid colliding stationary obstacles when the technology of LIDAR has been there for years.

However, Waymo doesn't sell me its LIDAR, so Tesla with its cool AI is a consolation prize. That doesn't mean I don't like Tesla. I do, I just don't like the part of dying in an Autopilot accident with its cool AI if I made a mistake.



It's true that if a working technology is not sold then it's pretty much useless.

However, what more important is: Has anyone proven that Air Conditioning does work?

It does no good to think which company leads in making Air Conditioning work because now they can certainly blow the same ambient temperature air out and with the promise of AI and all the software, it will blow cold air this year!

So, the first step is who is ahead. The next step is to commercialize it.

again, not really replying to my post just regurgitating talking points. Commercializing it is where the money is. If you can market it in a way where you can commercialize it before it works, welcome to automated car washes!!!!

 

[Tam]

...again, not really replying to my post just regurgitating talking points....

What should I reply to your post?

Isn't your point that if Tesla can sell its L2 as a Fully Self Dring system, then it deserves to rank as Leading in Driving Automation?

Isn't your point that since Waymo hasn't been selling its L4 system to consumers, it should not be ranked as Leading in Driving Automation?

Then I would agree with you that Tesla sells its L2 as a Fully Self Dring system quite well. It has been collecting money from consumers.

To agree with you on that point, I would rank Tesla as money-making L2, but certainly not an L4 technological Leading in Driving Automation.

Sure, Tesla talks about AI, Robotaxi but those are the goal and so far the goal has progressed to L2, not even L3. It's unknown when Tesla will ever move beyond L2 according to its letters with DMV.

Ranking Tesla as a commercially successful L2: Yes. But not as L4 Technological Leading in Driving Automation.

There! I agreed with you about the money!

 

[Cheburashka]

Seems to me that Tesla is where Google/Waymo was about 5 years ago in terms of driving ability. I think Waymo was actually having less disengaging than what we see in videos, even in suburbia.

Unfortunately Telsa has shoehorned itself into the existing sensor suite, which is a giant crutch.

 

[ZeApelido]

The answer should not be definitive in anyone's mind because if you change the definition / circumstances of how you frame autonomy, you should get a different answer.

I think another interesting question could be, "Who do you think will be leading driving automation in 5 years?" Presumably by then there will be more overlap in the autonomous "products" provided and so easier to compare.

 

[shrineofchance]

The entire topic, including the topic of this thread, has been discussed, and re discussed, and re re re re re discussed by the same like 9 people in this forum for 2 years.

Please leave your bad faith semantic nitpicking out of my thread and go somewhere where you actually intend to make a contribution to the discussion.

Your disinterest in this forum is not a good reason to come here and whinge about the fact that it exists and gets used for its intended purpose.

Surely the Model 3 has been discussed to death by now. Shall we shut down that forum, then?

 

[jjrandorin]

Please leave your bad faith semantic nitpicking out of my thread and go somewhere where you actually intend to make a contribution to the discussion.

Your disinterest in this forum is not a good reason to come here and whinge about the fact that it exists and gets used for its intended purpose.

Surely the Model 3 has been discussed to death by now. Shall we shut down that forum, then?

We dont allow personal attacks here in TMC, so consider this a warning to not do that. I said the topic has been re discussed to death, and it has. Thats my opinion and not a personal attack. Your post above is a personal attack, and as i mentioned those are not allowed. I dont recall saying anything about shutting this forum down.

 

[mikes_fsd]

We dont allow personal attacks here in TMC, so consider this a warning to not do that.

There was no personal attack, way to throw your "moderator" badge in ppl's face!
I wonder if you fall in the category of people that think the "disagree" button is a personal attack as well.... guess I'll find out soon enough!

 

[shrineofchance]

We dont allow personal attacks here in TMC, so consider this a warning to not do that. I said the topic has been re discussed to death, and it has. Thats my opinion and not a personal attack. Your post above is a personal attack, and as i mentioned those are not allowed. I dont recall saying anything about shutting this forum down.

It wasn't a personal attack, it was a rebuke of your disrespectful behaviour. Being held accountable for rude actions is not a personal attack. You made no attempt to contribute constructively to the discussion and, instead, merely expressed your impatience or even disdain for the discussion, for all the discussions in this forum, and for the people who participate in these discussions.

Your rudeness is not welcome here and I request that you desist.

 

[jjrandorin]

It was a personal attack, and its not "disrespectful" to state an opinion about a conversation, I am allowed to have those. It just seems to have touched a nerve with you because this is the forum you mostly participate in. Thats fine, but you dont get to censor peoples opinions on topics because you dont agree with them. As long as they are not personal attacks, people are allowed to have different opinions here, whether you agree with them or not.

Just because you dont agree with an opinion doesnt make it "rude and disrespectful". Just because you say that doesnt make it so.

 

[jjrandorin]

There was no personal attack, way to throw your "moderator" badge in ppl's face!
I wonder if you fall in the category of people that think the "disagree" button is a personal attack as well.... guess I'll find out soon enough!

Im not a moderator in this forum in TMC.

I was stating general policy here. If a post is pointed more toward an individual rather than a topic, then in general it looks like a personal attack. your post, for example is a disagreement with my opinion on whether this was a personal attack or not, not a personal attack in itself.

As for the "disagree" button, in general no I dont think its a personal attack, unless its weaponized and someone hunts down several posts someone makes simply to disagree with them. In any case, its perfectly fine for the same people to discuss the same topics over and over again, if thats what they want.

My original post in this thread was basically that @shrineofchance said "this has been discussed ad nauseum" like the rest of it hasnt.

 

[ZeApelido]

Anyways...

In regards to the initial question... I am consider "autonomy" as fully autonomous. Waymo is currently the leader. Limited scope, geo-fenced, pre-mapped, but they do have a working solution for something that is fully autonomous. That means something.

That is just a statement companies' relative positions, but not their velocities.

In 5 years (maybe 2 years), it will likely be Tesla.

 

[Tam]

...Limited scope, geo-fenced, pre-mapped...

That's not a bad deal!

L4 is perfect for freight trucks because they seldom deviate from a route/depot. If they do, their boss would call up to make sure they are not going for a joy ride.

There are only limited route/depot for each company (like a beer company) to pre-map.

I think it's a viable successful money-making model.

My guess is that it's not implemented yet because there are still some kinks to iron out with a leading L4 today.