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Poll: when will FSD Beta v9.x go fleet-wide?
- Thread starter shrineofchance
- Start date
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Based on the info in the other thread, it seems Tesla is working hard on camera driver monitoring. So I think it is possible that V9 FSD Beta will also come with camera driver monitoring in order to both improve driver attention and also offer hands-free.
I have had the same thought about visual driver monitoring being a pre-requisite for releasing FSD Beta (although I sincerely hope they don't offer hands-free driving initially and instead wait for a few billion miles of data to come in).
But I have no idea how far along Tesla is in getting visual driver monitoring ready for public release; no more than I know when FSD Beta v9.x will be ready for public release.
Fantastic video from verygreen for those who don't want to go digging through the other thread:
But I have no idea how far along Tesla is in getting visual driver monitoring ready for public release; no more than I know when FSD Beta v9.x will be ready for public release.
Fantastic video from verygreen for those who don't want to go digging through the other thread:
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pilotSteve
Active Member
Does this (requiring camera to monitor driver attention) imply Model S and X will not have the ability to use ”FSD” hands off?
Unclear. I don't think it would be terribly complex to add a selfie cam as an accessory.
EVRider-FL
Active Member
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I think it is implied in "the button". Elon said that the button would allow anyone (with FSD) to download FSD Beta if they want to and agree to the terms. So that would be the same as making FSD Beta fleet wide, I would think.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Yeah, I think camera driver monitoring is basically a pre-requisite for FSD Beta going wide. Tesla can't release something like FSD Beta with just the wheel torque. It would be too risky because of the likelihood of an accident when someone uses FSD Beta and is not paying attention. When testing is limited, Tesla can keep the risk low and kick people out if they are not paying attention. But when FSD Beta goes out to hundreds of thousands of drivers, the odds of someone not paying attention at the wrong time and getting into an accident is way higher. And if Tesla pairs the camera driver monitoring with the torque for extra redundancy, they can better enforce driver attention and keep risk low.
I do think there is great potential too in the camera driver monitoring to make a great product. When FSD Beta gets even better and we can go hands-free, imagine how great that will be. Yes, the system would still be L2 but having a hands-free system that can drive you in most cases from A to B, on city streets and highways, with no disengagements, would be fantastic. And it would definitely put Tesla ahead of the pack in terms of consumer car driver assist systems. The key will be safety and making sure that the system does not get abused because it would just take a couple accidents to shut down the whole thing.
EVRider-FL
Active Member
Elon also said that he would increase the number of beta participants from the current 1,000 to about 10,000, and then eventually scale out to more people. I interpreted that to mean "the button" will only be available to the additional owners who are invited to participate. But I hope to be proven wrong.
If only there was a tool he could use to communicate to everyone with some more detailsElon also said that he would increase the number of beta participants from the current 1,000 to about 10,000, and then eventually scale out to more people. I interpreted that to mean "the button" will only be available to the additional owners who are invited to participate. But I hope to be proven wrong.
Durwood101
Member
If a cabin camera is a required thing, guess all the early adopters would basically be without any FSD Beta or otherwise without the ability for Tesla to detect whether a drivers eyes were focused on the road. It seems a little difficult to think Tesla would retro install any cameras inside exsiting fleet for Model S and Model X owners.......and although I do think its the right thing to do, something tells me going that route pretty much excludes any pre-date 2021 Model X or S owners. I cant imagine anyone who paid for FSD being asked to wait any longer because of the camera needing to be in the car...that would be a bitter pill to swallow for alot of us.
DanCar
Active Member
I'm thinking Model S and X owners will be exempt from the camera monitoring system.
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My guess is that this is exactly what will happen. People install dashcam accessories all the time; a cabin camera seems like one of the least difficult things to retrofit onto a car. (Compare to the amount of trouble Tesla is going through to retrofit HW2 cars with the HW3 computer.)
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
At first, it is puzzling why Tesla would remove radar. Especially so since it's been reported that Tesla was developing its own in-house radar hardware.
After giving it a bit of thought, the best guess I can come up is that the new neural network architecture in FSD Beta v9.0 is incompatible with camera-radar sensor fusion for two reasons:
First, it processes all camera input as 360-degree panoramic video frames, and Tesla doesn't have 360-degree radar.
Second, and more importantly, the ratio of deep learning research published on processing camera images vs. processing radar signals is probably like 10,000:1 or 100,000:1. A hard research problem that Tesla has been working on is how to get a neural net to compare sequential video frames, thereby incorporating temporal information into its predictions (rather than treat every still image as belonging to its own universe. It may just now be possible to do this with camera images, but I'm fairly certain it's still impossible to do this with radar signals.
In other words: my guess is that Tesla has made significant progress in computer vision, and that progress relies on a neural network architecture that is incompatible with camera-radar sensor fusion.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
To be clear on the "funny" - I just think it's funny that a single word response from Elon, for something that may not happen, results in so much speculation about the reasons for this "change". But, to speculate: My thinking is that they aren't incorporating radar for City Streets right now because it's too complicated to deal with at the moment (possibly for some of the reasons you mention). In other words, I agree with what you said about the current state of affairs, though longer term saying radar is “incompatible” seems like too strong a statement. I guess we'll see if their progress in computer vision remains incompatible with radar inputs long term. I don't think there's necessarily any reason it can't be incorporated in some situations, but it's also not really necessary; certainly for City Streets it seems less useful than on the highway.
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diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
At first, it is puzzling why Tesla would remove radar. Especially so since it's been reported that Tesla was developing its own in-house radar hardware.
After giving it a bit of thought, the best guess I can come up is that the new neural network architecture in FSD Beta v9.0 is incompatible with camera-radar sensor fusion for two reasons:
First, it processes all camera input as 360-degree panoramic video frames, and Tesla doesn't have 360-degree radar.
Second, and more importantly, the ratio of deep learning research published on processing camera images vs. processing radar signals is probably like 10,000:1 or 100,000:1. A hard research problem that Tesla has been working on is how to get a neural net to compare sequential video frames, thereby incorporating temporal information into its predictions (rather than treat every still image as belonging to its own universe. It may just now be possible to do this with camera images, but I'm fairly certain it's still impossible to do this with radar signals.
In other words: my guess is that Tesla has made significant progress in computer vision, and that progress relies on a neural network architecture that is incompatible with camera-radar sensor fusion.
Elon's tweet about removing production radar is incredibly ballsy IMO. If FSD Beta gets into accident and it is revealed that the camera vision made a mistake, and radar would have prevented the accident, there will be loud cries for Tesla to put radar back into cars.
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