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Poll: Would you pay for a higher power Model X charger?

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So I get that not having dual charging will periodically bump those with 4 hour "practically free" time of use rates into paying higher rates for a fraction of their charge. I get that people who drive a lot - over 150 miles without supercharging - on a regular basis could have measurable, even meaningful extra electric cost. (In this case I'm not sure I wouldn't rather allocate the avoided dual charger cost toward a powerwall.)

And I get that some places are in charging deserts. When my aunt got her car there was no network, and when she's at her summer home in Jackson WY it's still pretty sparse. Even so, they never once utilized their dual chargers, and didn't get them when they traded for a 70d.

So I'm trying to get my head around the "problem" not having faster charging represents for destination charging. This problem seems like a straw man. On 40a 4 hours will provide over 100 miles. Not all HPWC's provide 80a. Many "destination" charge opportunities may provide less than 40a. Are there really that many 80a charging opportunities where people will need more than 100 miles of charge, and have less than 4 hours to do it, and Supercharging will not erase this problem very shortly, that the lack of dual charging is a significant market problem?

On a monthly basis, how much time is this going to cost people? How many people are actually WAITING for their cars to charge when ac charging?? I just can't help feeling that dual chargers have WAY greater value in concept than practice for all but a very few outliers. And those folks are making use of their dual chargers daily or weekly. Maybe it would help to hear from folks who USED to rely heavily on dual chargers, and what their thoughts are.
Even if the higher amp charging is only used once or twice a year while on vacation, I think it's worth having that capability. It can make a huge difference those few days when you really need it.
 
So I get that not having dual charging will periodically bump those with 4 hour "practically free" time of use rates into paying higher rates for a fraction of their charge. I get that people who drive a lot - over 150 miles without supercharging - on a regular basis could have measurable, even meaningful extra electric cost. (In this case I'm not sure I wouldn't rather allocate the avoided dual charger cost toward a powerwall.)

And I get that some places are in charging deserts. When my aunt got her car there was no network, and when she's at her summer home in Jackson WY it's still pretty sparse. Even so, they never once utilized their dual chargers, and didn't get them when they traded for a 70d.

So I'm trying to get my head around the "problem" not having faster charging represents for destination charging. This problem seems like a straw man. On 40a 4 hours will provide over 100 miles. Not all HPWC's provide 80a. Many "destination" charge opportunities may provide less than 40a. Are there really that many 80a charging opportunities where people will need more than 100 miles of charge, and have less than 4 hours to do it, and Supercharging will not erase this problem very shortly, that the lack of dual charging is a significant market problem?

On a monthly basis, how much time is this going to cost people? How many people are actually WAITING for their cars to charge when ac charging?? I just can't help feeling that dual chargers have WAY greater value in concept than practice for all but a very few outliers. And those folks are making use of their dual chargers daily or weekly. Maybe it would help to hear from folks who USED to rely heavily on dual chargers, and what their thoughts are.
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I think what you're missing, Tedd, is that if you stop midday to charge, the difference in time between 48 and 72amps is substantial. I've taken my Roadster on a few long trips & stopping midday at 40amps is beyond painful. I purposely plan Roadster roadtrips (when possible) to take advantage of 80amp charging.

Case in point: I was taking my Roadster to the Monterrey event this summer. I didn't worry about range on my way, because I was planning on stopping at the factory and using one of the Roadster HPCs there. But what I didn't factor in was that it was the particular weekend that a crane knocked power out for the entire site. No 80amp charging. I went to a nearby hotel and charged at 40amps. And I was very very late to the event, even though I only put in enough juice to get me there (80 amps in Salinas for the return trip).

Do I need it often? No. But when I need it, it's important to trip planning. And there are plenty of places without Supercharging, but 80amps available.
 
Bonnie and TexasEV rightly described the issue for those of us in SC anorexic areas. We may not have 8 hour down time on those trips we take 3 or 4 times a year. We prefer to drive all day and night -- one resting while the other is driving and maybe stopping 4-6 hours for deep self-charging (bed rest).

Along the 5-6 hour drive from Houston to Brownsville, there are currently no Superchargers but there is an 80A opportunity 60 miles from Brownsville. I may install a HPWC at my relatives' place in Brownsville but the MX in its current state won't work to get there in a timely manner and forget about a quick turnaround back to Houston.
 
I get Bonnie and Beryl's examples. I guess I didn't state my question well - it seems those examples are likely to be further and fewer between now and going forward.

Beryl, and Texas EV, being in a Supercharger desert, I get there may be a few years where 80 amp comes into play.
Bonnie, are you likely to ever use/benefit from 80 amp once you have a Supercharger enabled vehicle?

So is the tipping point 2-3 uses a year? If I lived in Texas I imagine that'd be an easy tipping point to hit.

I am painfully aware of the benefits of faster charging, my car only has 3.3 on board. That said, I've become so AC charging averse and these superchargers are popping up everywhere. Yes, 3 hours is a lot shorter than 6, but once you get used to 30 minutes don't you become AC averse? 80 amp charging seems so rare anyway I can't imagine paying for the second charger or ever putting myself in a position that I'd get significant benefit from it.

It certainly isn't something I'd have just to have. I'd much rather have heated seats in Florida...

Using Elon's first principles thinking, I'm thinking the 80 amp charging was a bridge design. And I suspect soon these powerwalls might be able to DC charge - and discharge for tapping the car for backup and tou sales.
 
Bonnie, are you likely to ever use/benefit from 80 amp once you have a Supercharger enabled vehicle?

Yes, of course I am. I've been working over the last year at getting Destination Chargers in places where I'm likely to be going, that aren't covered by SpC. (No grass growing here. :) ) Superchargers will be more 'on the beaten path'. I have a soft spot for roadtrips that take me off the beaten path.

I've been driving an EV almost 5 years now. I'm very aware of my charging needs and what's available where.
 
Still very fuzzy. Would you mind sharing some examples of where you'll go and how 80 amp is going to make that more convenient?

If you are finding that many holes in your neck of the woods I'm sure they exist in mine, I just need a lense adjustment so they jump out when I look at the map.

It's not fuzzy at all. What was fuzzy? I suspect you're being disingenuous. :)

If you don't feel you need a higher rate of charge, ever, that's your call. You've been driving an EV, I'll give you the respect of assuming you know what you're doing by now and you know the routes you'll use. :)

I can tell you're convinced that you're right on this one and that other people don't really need what they say they need. And you are ... for you. Not for me.
 
No. I drive a 70 mile car that maxes at about 15 mph. You have a 200 mile car that maxes at what, 52 mph? I think that's a very different experience. My life it completely range constrained. My lense is likely very different from yours.

If I had a 250 mile car and Supercharger access I have trouble imagining situations where I would need 80 amp charging. Near me I see a desert in PA - so if I lived or traveled there frequently I guess there might be benefits.

Every place I want to go I can get to easily now, except Jackson Wyoming. By next year big holes like Texas, Nebraska, and Arkansas are going to be filled. I've said I understand how people in these places are still wanting the fastest AC charging they can get.

I suspect you are suggesting that even after the network is built out you will find situations where 80 amp is a great value, and I'm trying to see what you see, if there is some logic I can snap into to broaden my perspective. I'm not emotionally tied to being "right" - I'm more interested in understanding what holes I'm missing.

So I thought you might have examples you could share. But maybe you are basing your opinion on gut feelings rather than some clearly defined situations.
 
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But maybe you are basing your opinion on gut feelings rather than some clearly defined situations.

Thanks for the respect.

Check out the Sun Country Highway - tons of 80amp, not a whole lot of SpC along the route. And yes, I do drive there. I'm a Minnesota girl & lots of relatives in both the Winnipeg and Ottawa areas.

I could give plenty of other situations, but really, you don't need to pour over what my needs are. Nor do I need to justify myself (though speculating that maybe it's just a 'gut' thing on my part did bother me). Let's just accept the other has different needs.

Fair?
 
@Tedkidd

I'm trying to stay out of the argumentative mode here but really, what may work for you might be a lot different than other people. As I have stated in other posts, (more detailed), this is a problem for me most every weekend. I can't drive 150 miles in the day, then turn around in an hour and drive 100 miles to the weekend house. I either change my driving schedule every weekend to accommodate the range or change my work schedule to accommodate more time to charge at home. Superchargers are not an option in the area. I expect a car to accommodate my lifestyle. I didn't expect to have to change my lifestyle to accommodate the car. With the the 80 amp charging of the MS or even the 72 amp charging, I think it would work out but dropping to nearly half of what I expected is going to be a problem. I'm betting a lot on the fact that there will be an upgrade in the future.
 
+ 1; appreciate others well developed statements. My areas of travel to and with family and friends are not fully covered by superchargers, in fact only partially covered. I am willing to compromise for the car; but I make these trips about every other month and slow charging makes it a much bigger compromise than I had anticipated! I had already checked out some HPWC charging at 80 that I had thought would make it doable.
 
Imagine at home or away at a HPWC: The old slow 2012 P85 Model S Signature with version "A" battery charging at 80 amps while the new lighting fast 2016 P90D Model X Signature with the latest battery version will slowly charge at 48 amps.

All that Ludicrous speed and faster charging for Model X at Superchargers will all be for naught.

It's the 2016 version of The Tortoise and the Hare.
 
Imagine at home or away at a HPWC: The old slow 2012 P85 Model S Signature with version "A" battery charging at 80 amps while the new lighting fast 2016 P90D Model X Signature with the latest battery version will slowly charge at 48 amps.

All that Ludicrous speed and faster charging for Model X at Superchargers will all be for naught.

It's the 2016 version of The Tortoise and the Hare.

It is even worse if you consider that the Model X uses around 6% more energy per mile. The Model S charges at 58mph (at 80A), but the
Model X charges at 33mph (at 48A). With a larger battery pack and higher energy use, we should be demanding *faster* AC charging, not
slower.
 
Here's the thing. You can never have an AC charging solution that's too fast. Nobody is going to complain that their car charged too quickly. We always want charging to be as fast as possible because it provides greater flexibility. Slow charging will limit your options for planning a road trip where AC charging is required. In Canada, that's going to be a reality for a long time. Take a look at the SuperCharger roll-out in Saskatchewan. Now fast-forward to the end of 2016, not much difference. Unlike California, NY and possibly Florida where you have many options for SuperChargering, Canada has a single row of Superchargers on the main arteries and one needs to stop at each one in order to get to the next.

I'm not saying everyone needs to have 80A charging, but there are definitely those that could benefit from it, so it would be a nice gesture if Tesla provided an optional 2nd charger for the latter group. Charging speeds should always get faster, not slower. In theory the Model-X AC charging went from 80A -> 72A -> 48A. This is the wrong direction.
 
So I get the problem that 80a charging is rare as unicorn feathers. As I said my aunts first S had dual charging, a feature I thought critically important at the time, and they never used it. I see the problem of not producing more cars with 80a charging will NOT further the cause of getting 80a charging locations. And personally, I'm trying to understand what to run to the garage, and what EVSE will make sense long term.

If 80a charging is going away that makes the service requirements quite different, particularly if futureproofing for 2 or more cars.



Clearly anybody traveling in Canada and other "SC anorexic areas" will seriously benefit from dual charging. And that need in Canada may likely be true for quite some time. This seems enough of an example that removing the option is unjustified, particularly when coupled with the fact there are so many 80a stations in place.

I'm a little confused that Tesla wouldn't offer dual charging, and would like to make sense of that decision. Seems telling customers what they DON'T need which is clearly a departure from the strategy of giving more than people need so range anxiety is firmly conquered. And as the X has towing, the 6/7-1 drive/charge ratio may shift for a fair number of folks.

And I get the "I want it because I want it" argument. I would have heated seats even if I lived in Florida. As a car business though I'm not sure it makes sense to carry a product if that was the only market for a thing.

But having clearly laid out arguments showing why it's necessary in areas that are NOT "Supercharger Anorexic", in my mind, seems the most powerful way to convey the point that they need to offer dual-chargers. I don't think being irrational, combative, or defensive get's you there. Compelling real world examples of how it is a deficiency does.

@Tedkidd

I'm trying to stay out of the argumentative mode here but really, what may work for you might be a lot different than other people. As I have stated in other posts, (more detailed), this is a problem for me most every weekend. I can't drive 150 miles in the day, then turn around in an hour and drive 100 miles to the weekend house. I either change my driving schedule every weekend to accommodate the range or change my work schedule to accommodate more time to charge at home. Superchargers are not an option in the area. I expect a car to accommodate my lifestyle. I didn't expect to have to change my lifestyle to accommodate the car. With the the 80 amp charging of the MS or even the 72 amp charging, I think it would work out but dropping to nearly half of what I expected is going to be a problem. I'm betting a lot on the fact that there will be an upgrade in the future.

So Washington is probably a really good example. It's only getting 2 more SC in the next year+.

Let me see if I'm following:

The problem is driving 150 miles for work, then needing 50-100 miles to comfortably make the cottage. 60-90 minutes loading and getting ready means you aren't waiting for the car, 120-180 delays your trip, and that last hour means a higher level of exhaustion/discomfort when you arrive. Even if Centralia or Ellensburg weren't out of the way, avoiding the stop has value. Particularly after a long day.

This initially sounds a little bit outlier, but put a trailer on the back and you can see how similar scenarios could become common ("Let's take the snowmobiles to the Adirondacks").
 
So Washington is probably a really good example. It's only getting 2 more SC in the next year+.

Let me see if I'm following:

The problem is driving 150 miles for work, then needing 50-100 miles to comfortably make the cottage. 60-90 minutes loading and getting ready means you aren't waiting for the car, 120-180 delays your trip, and that last hour means a higher level of exhaustion/discomfort when you arrive. Even if Centralia or Ellensburg weren't out of the way, avoiding the stop has value. Particularly after a long day.

This initially sounds a little bit outlier, but put a trailer on the back and you can see how similar scenarios could become common ("Let's take the snowmobiles to the Adirondacks").

To clarify my real life example, my work mileage varies a bit from 100-150 miles. The cottage is not variable, about 110 miles one way. I can't travel I5 for a supercharger, I'm going down the coast. I make a point to get on the freeway before 3:00 when the military bases change shift. If I'm after that, my 2 hour trip becomes a 3 hour trip, (plus a pain in the butt drive). So in my real world example, unless I change where on drive or change my work schedule, the change is chargers will cost me 2-3 hour every Friday. Doesn't seem like much but somehow there is a big difference between getting to the cottage at 5:00 Friday to start your weekend and getting there at 8:00.

I had this all worked out, (as best as possible without owning a tesla yet), prior to ordering the MX. For 3 years I've been concerned that the expected range reduction might make it unusable for me. At 250 miles I think it still works, at 200 I would probably have to bail. I never expected tesla to go backwards on the charger. 170,000 miles on my current vehicle in 7 years. I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken a trip that would require drive time charging and those would be covered by the superchargers but this issue effects me nearly every weekend.
 
So I get the problem that 80a charging is rare as unicorn feathers. .
Not if Tesla keeps expanding the destination charging program, as they intend to do. Yes I know some of those HPWCs are only wired to deliver 40A, but the majority are 64-80A and if Tesla encourages the future destinations to install them on 100A circuits to accommodate the cars drawing 72 or 80A, more will be installed that way where the electrical service is available.
 
So I get the problem that 80a charging is rare as unicorn feathers.

Not quite so rare. Take a look at the "Find Us" page, turn on Destination Charging and turn off the others. Here is a view of the NE corridor from that page. Most of these are in the 64-80 Amp range.

NYC-Destinaiton.jpg