Porsche’s Mission E caught testing alongside Tesla vehicles

[R.S]

I'm still waiting for information that clarifies where the batteries are going to come from. Meanwhile:

Battery suppliers struggle to keep up with demand for Porsche's Panamera [hybrid] [Reuters, Dec 2017]
...
“At present we are able to meet customer demand well,” he said in an interview, adding about 8,000 Panamera hybrids would be built this year. “But there are limits because we are dependent on the capacities of battery suppliers.”

“As a buyer we had originally projected different volumes (of battery systems needed),” Rupp said. “The effects can be seen in longer delivery times of currently 3-4 months for Panamera hybrid models.”
...
Battery suppliers struggle to keep up with demand for Porsche's Paname

If the cells are to be sourced from Europe, and if I remember correctly:
- LG and Samsung SDi building modest sized factories,
- Bosch saying since a while they will invest billions [they do have the firepower], and select a site in 2018
- Northvolt planning a Gigafactory in Sweden

Otherwise, it's probably high time to dial in supplies from Panasonic, Korea, or top Chinese cell manufacturers like CATL.

The supply issues are not because no one can supply enough cells, but because Porsche underestimated the demand in PHEV Panameras and ordered too few cells.

In terms of production capacity the Panamera is really low demand, but if they thought they'd have 25% PHEVs and then actually get orders for more than 50%, then the supplier won't have enough Panamera PHEV cells. And since battery demand is constantly growing, it's really necessary to estimate demand correctly.

So if Porsche estimates 20k Mission E and it turns out to be 25-30k, nothing really would happen, but if it exceeds 40k, then we will see delays as well. But that isn't unique to EVs. Every new car has supply issues at first, especially if it turns out to sell much better, than expected.

All factories built today are built for specific supply contracts, that are either signed, or that the cell manufacturers are competing for. No one,excep the Chinese, because of massive subsidies, builds a cell factory just so. So IMO they will probably get LG cells.

Maybe Tesla can talk to Panasonic about 800 volt battery packs that Porsche have in mind.

The 800V has nothing to do with the cells. You can put more cells in series and you get to a higher voltage. The problems with higher voltage packs exist on the pack, DCDC, OBC, (motor), inverter and wiring side, which those cell manufacturers don't do. Tesla builds it's own packs, so does Porsche. Therefore it's up to Tesla to design a 800V pack, though I think Tesla considers 800V too costly for the Model 3.

And even if they changed the S and X, they would have to upgrade all their superchargers, since a 800V car can't charge on a 400V charger. So even though 800V would have benefits, the cost would probably not be worth it (for now).

 

[NeverFollow]

And even if they changed the S and X, they would have to upgrade all their superchargers, since a 800V car can't charge on a 400V charger. So even though 800V would have benefits, the cost would probably not be worth it (for now).

Does this remind you something...

Why isn't there a standard voltage around the world?

Why doesn’t the US use 220V like everyone else in the world? - Electronic Products

 

[R.S]

Does this remind you something...

Why isn't there a standard voltage around the world?

Why doesn’t the US use 220V like everyone else in the world? - Electronic Products

The good thing is, that with todays power electronics, we can switch voltage levels more easily to give more backwards compatibility. But eventually the problem is the same. Every new 350 kW charger will have to be able to supply 200 V as well, just in case an empty lower voltage car comes by. But that's doable.

So as long as the plugs are backwards compatible, changing the voltage should not be as much of an issue. But the car makers need to build the chargers in advance, as Porsche (VW) is doing now. Otherwise you'll have a car with no existing charging infrastructure.

So I think we'll notice Tesla installing 800V chargers before we will see their 800V vehicles revealed.

 

[smac]

So as long as the plugs are backwards compatible, changing the voltage should not be as much of an issue. But the car makers need to build the chargers in advance, as Porsche (VW) is doing now. Otherwise you'll have a car with no existing charging infrastructure.

These are going in by the hundred into the UK as we speak:

Express Plus

Personally I think the catalyst has been the EU laws that have recently passed stopping the mess of captive RFID cards, subscription models, competing charging standards and all the other cr@p we've had to put up with.

The EV fleet size is growing (both in yearly sales, but total on the road), the captive user practises smashed up, there's is now clarity of direction with standards, and multiple long range EV's coming on the market. The market dynamics of charging provision are evolving fast.

Venture capital it seems is now seeing it as far more an interesting space. Zouk Capital are already in for £12m with InstaVolt, and they are just one of a handful of companies in the UK alone InstaVolt triples its order book for electric vehicle chargers | InstaVolt

With a network of compatible and inter-operable networks, it really won't matter who operates the individual points. So personally I don't think it will end up being the car makers who drive the deployment, but more nimble focused enterprises.

 

[R.S]

These are going in by the hundred into the UK as we speak:

Express Plus

Personally I think the catalyst has been the EU laws that have recently passed stopping the mess of captive RFID cards, subscription models, competing charging standards and all the other cr@p we've had to put up with.

The EV fleet size is growing (both in yearly sales, but total on the road), the captive user practises smashed up, there's is now clarity of direction with standards, and multiple long range EV's coming on the market. The market dynamics of charging provision are evolving fast.

Venture capital it seems is now seeing it as far more an interesting space. Zouk Capital are already in for £12m with InstaVolt, and they are just one of a handful of companies in the UK alone InstaVolt triples its order book for electric vehicle chargers | InstaVolt

With a network of compatible and inter-operable networks, it really won't matter who operates the individual points. So personally I don't think it will end up being the car makers who drive the deployment, but more nimble focused enterprises.

Those chargers, especially with 4 blocks are extreme! Let's hope they are mostly building those, or at least the 2 block solutions, but it seems to be modular enough to retrofit.

 

[smac]

Those chargers, especially with 4 blocks are extreme! Let's hope they are mostly building those, or at least the 2 block solutions, but it seems to be modular enough to retrofit.

There are planning applications flying in at the moment in the UK.

One that has really caught my eye is an 11 bay installation which would link the two largest cities in the UK (located half way between). The plans are for CPE250's which would be similar paired bay sharing as the Superchargers, offering a maximum 125kW delivered without any Power Cubes, but only one bay could get it at a time.

The accompanying documentation specifically mentions adding Power Cubes at a later date.

TBH this is just smart roll out management, as soon as the 100kW+ cars come out in volume, they can be upgraded as needed, focusing on core routes first, while still receiving revenue from the far larger fleets of 50kW cars for who the Power Cubes would be complete overkill.

 

[Spidy]

 

[mspohr]

Update on Mission E
Details emerge about Porsche’s new electric car, charging network

Still a year away
800 v chargers at dealers (useless)
Vague plans for "nationwide network"

 

[Hank42]

Update on Mission E
Details emerge about Porsche’s new electric car, charging network

Still a year away
800 v chargers at dealers (useless)
Vague plans for "nationwide network"

Oh why don't these guys just give in and pay Tesla to use Tesla's existing infrastructure?. It has got to be cheaper than building out their own, and hey, dare we establish a standard?

On the other hand, Tesla's got a huge advantage with its network - given the choice as thins stand now, I'd buy a Tesla over any other electric vehicle. That might change if the charging network were equal/superior, but that's a long time out.

 

[Olds442]

Oh why don't these guys just give in and pay Tesla to use Tesla's existing infrastructure?. It has got to be cheaper than building out their own, and hey, dare we establish a standard?

On the other hand, Tesla's got a huge advantage with its network - given the choice as thins stand now, I'd buy a Tesla over any other electric vehicle. That might change if the charging network were equal/superior, but that's a long time out.

i wonder if at some point Tesla opens up this option to individual owners of other EV's? obviously the cars would need to be able to handle the charge and likely need an adapter but, there's money to be made "charging" other brands.

maybe that's just against everything we'd want, but it would help Tesla support the charger network.

 

[Spidy]

Tesla does not even seem interested in switching to CCS. Until that happens it is not even an option anyway.

Vague plans for "nationwide network"

IONITY DE

 

[TEG]

These are going in by the hundred into the UK as we speak:

Express Plus

Personally I think the catalyst has been the EU laws that have recently passed stopping the mess of captive RFID cards, subscription models, competing charging standards and all the other cr@p we've had to put up with.

The EV fleet size is growing (both in yearly sales, but total on the road), the captive user practises smashed up, there's is now clarity of direction with standards, and multiple long range EV's coming on the market. The market dynamics of charging provision are evolving fast.

Venture capital it seems is now seeing it as far more an interesting space. Zouk Capital are already in for £12m with InstaVolt, and they are just one of a handful of companies in the UK alone InstaVolt triples its order book for electric vehicle chargers | InstaVolt

With a network of compatible and inter-operable networks, it really won't matter who operates the individual points. So personally I don't think it will end up being the car makers who drive the deployment, but more nimble focused enterprises.

That "Express Plus" talks about universal compatibility, but does that include Tesla? Can you "supercharge" a Tesla vehicle from those charging stations?

 

[mspohr]

That "Express Plus" talks about universal compatibility, but does that include Tesla? Can you "supercharge" a Tesla vehicle from those charging stations?

They talk about "up to three DC connector types" per station so theoretically it could include Chademo which Tesla supports. Hopefully in the future, Tesla will also support CCS.

 

[SMAlset]

Oh why don't these guys just give in and pay Tesla to use Tesla's existing infrastructure?. It has got to be cheaper than building out their own, and hey, dare we establish a standard?

On the other hand, Tesla's got a huge advantage with its network - given the choice as thins stand now, I'd buy a Tesla over any other electric vehicle. That might change if the charging network were equal/superior, but that's a long time out.

From what I've read Tesla in the beginning did extend the invite out to other manufacturers. No takers. With all the Model 3s on order and an increase in the Model S and Xs and future production of the Roadster and Model Ys, I don't see any point for them to do this now. Model 3s will partially help support the expansion and not all S/Xs have unlimited free supercharging so a smaller number of them will factor in too. With Supercharging stations like Kettleman City Tesla probably could make those type of stations a decent money generator if they choose to (like a mini-mart). Electricity is getting cheaper. Tesla has I think 10-year leases on their current sites with an option to extend I believe written in. I'm not even sure there's any money factored in beyond the cost of equipment, installation and electricity on Tesla's part. For the land owner they get Tesla exposure and Tesla owner traffic which presumably helps their site economically. Costs for the equipment, installation get amortized over the years I assume. Who knows what electricity costs will be 10-15-20 years down the road but likely to be less than they are today, so those paid off sites will cost them even less as time goes on (until maybe renewal time). By then who knows where charging technology will be or battery capacity.

Until Tesla, horrible pollution and governments lit a fire under them, other car manufacturers haven't cared to any real degree to invest in EV technology or promoting their compliance EVs, most have such a small battery size you would be charging at home anyway, so why bother to develop infrastructure. They also figure let third-party companies like ChargePoint and EVgo step in and risk their funds building out infrastructure for longer distance needs and convenience of their EV owners. Like I said I personally don't see any point in opening up the charging system to other manufacturers at this point. Now that the Model 3 will soon be hitting the roads and charging stations in large numbers, it doesn't serve Tesla at this late date to offer up their charging stations to other car manufacturers to the detriment in charge/wait times of their own current and future owners. Besides as car manufacturers have seen the popularity of Tesla vehicles continually expanding, they now have their own "super charging" network in the works, Ionity, a joint venture with Porche, Audi, BMW, Ford and Daimler. It will be interesting to see long term how faster charging rates like the ones discussed in their articles will affect battery longevity.