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That just makes it all the more confusing. As a general rule, there's a tradeoff between energy density and power density.
Do not forget the cost and availability.
How much cadmium is in that cells? Is it possible to ramp their production 10x times?

Energy and power density are just two metrics, the rabbit hole goes much much deeper.
 
I think the question also becomes what the base Taycan offer vs the Model 3 performance (which will probably be cheaper)

In terms of performance? Sure less. But what does the Model S offer in terms of performance compared to the performance Model 3? Or the base Panamera compared to the BMW M3?

The performance Model 3 is a 40k car with a performance oriented powertrain. If you only care about performance and want to spend less than 100k and it should be electric, then the performance Model 3 is surely the best choice and that will still be true with the Taycan being released.
 
Porsche has a rep for getting the details right, but battery powered cars are an all new thing for them. Maybe to get the "Tesla killer" performance they made some mistakes pushing the battery tech too far? The details do seem odd.
Porsche claims that they have had a dozen Boxster's with all electric power trains since 2008-9:

They have had hybrid's for awhile as well in production vehicles. VW Group didn't start making serious plans to transition to EV though until dieselgate first broke.
 
That's actually pretty good, higher than Tesla Model 3 and Model S.

Model 3 LR has 4416 batteries at 70 grams giving 309 kg for 80kWh.
That gives the Model 3 259Wh/kg at cell level. Those guys at LG Chem have done their homework.
Recent tear-down and solder to a Model 3 circuit board to get access to the CAN bus signals show the battery as 76 kWh.. so only 245Wh/kg.
 
New hypothesis: it could be a big trick. And if so, kudos to Porsche for pulling the wool over our eyes so effectively. ;)

Here's how the possible trick works: For a normal EV battery pack, you use nearly the whole pack. You might have, say, an 80kWh pack but only make 75kWh usable, or whatnot. And for a given chemistry, the higher the capacity and the lower the SoC, the higher the charge rate. Easy enough, right?

So, just make the pack way bigger than necessary, and lop off half of the pack at the top end and a bit at the low end.So, say, a 200kWh pack, but you only expose 60-70kWh. Now charging at high powers is easy! And look, no meaningful taper! Plus, with all those cells in parallel - even at low SoCs - you've got gobs of power on-hand.And the part you lobbed off at the bottom is a massive emergency "below zero" buffer. And even if you're still charging somewhat more aggressively than normal, because you're only doing so closer to the middle of the cells' true SoC range, you're not doing as much damage.

Why would a manufacturer do this? Why not just give drivers the full true capacity, if you've got such a large battery? Well, if you did that, you couldn't boast about being the fastest charging EV on the market, now could you? ;)

Okay, that said: I'm not saying that this is what Porsche did. I honestly have no clue what they're doing. But I just wanted to throw it out there as a possibility. It's also a hypothesis that can hybridize with other hypotheses. E.g. they could lop off a greater-than-usual chunk of the capacity and have a revolutionary battery chemistry, they could lop off a greater-than-usual chunk of the capacity and choose to fry their cells, etc.
 
Porsche claims that they have had a dozen Boxster's with all electric power trains since 2008-9:

They have had hybrid's for awhile as well in production vehicles. VW Group didn't start making serious plans to transition to EV though until dieselgate first broke.

Having converted a few cars to electric as an experiment is a different thing than trying to mass produce an EV. What were the battery pack sizes and ranges for those Boxters? Were they capable of fast charging?

Also hybrids are a different creature from a pure EV, especially a long range pure EV. Hybrids are always recharging the battery when the engine is running and by design its a slow charge. The packs are also small so they top out quickly. Some recent hybrids are using li-ion, but many have had nickel-metal-hydride batteries which have different characteristics from li-ion. We have no evidence Porsche has any experience with long range EV battery packs and the subtleties of fast charging them.

I'm sure they have torn apart some Tesla Model Ss and probably some Model Xs too and learned what they can. But Porsche is relying on third party fast chargers while Tesla does everything in house. Availability of 800V capable CCS chargers may remain limited for some time, possibly forever if 800V systems don't become popular. A third party installation is not going to bother offering a more expensive feature that only a handful of their customers will ever use unless they charge a hefty premium for it.

It is quite possible Porsche does know what they are doing and some of the seeming oddities will be either explained or they are bad information. Porsche does have a reputation for getting things right, so that is a check in the plus column, but they are also venturing into new territory here.
 
Having converted a few cars to electric as an experiment is a different thing than trying to mass produce an EV. What were the battery pack sizes and ranges for those Boxters? Were they capable of fast charging?

Also hybrids are a different creature from a pure EV, especially a long range pure EV. Hybrids are always recharging the battery when the engine is running and by design its a slow charge. The packs are also small so they top out quickly. Some recent hybrids are using li-ion, but many have had nickel-metal-hydride batteries which have different characteristics from li-ion. We have no evidence Porsche has any experience with long range EV battery packs and the subtleties of fast charging them.

I'm sure they have torn apart some Tesla Model Ss and probably some Model Xs too and learned what they can. But Porsche is relying on third party fast chargers while Tesla does everything in house. Availability of 800V capable CCS chargers may remain limited for some time, possibly forever if 800V systems don't become popular. A third party installation is not going to bother offering a more expensive feature that only a handful of their customers will ever use unless they charge a hefty premium for it.

It is quite possible Porsche does know what they are doing and some of the seeming oddities will be either explained or they are bad information. Porsche does have a reputation for getting things right, so that is a check in the plus column, but they are also venturing into new territory here.
I meant only that they had done that in secret for the past 10 years, so perhaps they have some other secrets up their sleeve that have been in development...
 
but battery powered cars are an all new thing for them. Maybe to get the "Tesla killer" performance they made some mistakes pushing the battery tech too far? The details do seem odd.

Well, I wouldn't say battery powered cars are 'an all new thing' for Porsche. Certainly, they have never done an all ELECTRIC car like a Tesla - yet, but they have many years of hybrid electric drive train, electrical and battery technology from both their racing 919 models (800v electrical systems) and the 918 hybrid supercar which was originally produced in 2013.

And lets not underestimate the R&D and procurement sharing going on with the parent company VWAG (which includes VW, Audi, Porsche and about five other brands) that has been producing all electric vehicles for many years.

Of course, chassis and battery pack size, density, performance are going to quite different in an all electric consumer available entry but I think they have actually more technical experience in the performance space for providing a consumer available model than pretty much any other manufacturer - maybe Toyota would get a nod to overall experience.

just my .02$.
 
Recent tear-down and solder to a Model 3 circuit board to get access to the CAN bus signals show the battery as 76 kWh.. so only 245Wh/kg.

That's not how that works. Specific energy is given at the nominal energy, not at the usable capacity of the pack.

Matter of fact, I suspect the Porsche Taycan will have a very large buffer with a much smaller usable pack size to handle the demands they are putting on it.

I am looking for confirmation on the 2170 cell weight... I've seen pack weight and I've seen cell module weight, but not cell weight.
 
Well, I wouldn't say battery powered cars are 'an all new thing' for Porsche. Certainly, they have never done an all ELECTRIC car like a Tesla - yet, but they have many years of hybrid electric drive train, electrical and battery technology from both their racing 919 models (800v electrical systems) and the 918 hybrid supercar which was originally produced in 2013.

And lets not underestimate the R&D and procurement sharing going on with the parent company VWAG (which includes VW, Audi, Porsche and about five other brands) that has been producing all electric vehicles for many years.

Of course, chassis and battery pack size, density, performance are going to quite different in an all electric consumer available entry but I think they have actually more technical experience in the performance space for providing a consumer available model than pretty much any other manufacturer - maybe Toyota would get a nod to overall experience.

just my .02$.

Porsche is one of the most experienced makers of high performance cars. The information leaking out is confusing, but if past is prologue, they will likely get it right.

I expect the Taycan will likely be a niche vehicle though. Porsche has a strong following, but the number of people who would actually want to own a Porsche is a limited market. Porsche had their best year in the US ever in 2017 selling 55K cars. Tesla has already beaten that this year.
 
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Well, I wouldn't say battery powered cars are 'an all new thing' for Porsche. Certainly, they have never done an all ELECTRIC car like a Tesla - yet, but they have many years of hybrid electric drive train, electrical and battery technology from both their racing 919 models (800v electrical systems) and the 918 hybrid supercar which was originally produced in 2013.

And lets not underestimate the R&D and procurement sharing going on with the parent company VWAG (which includes VW, Audi, Porsche and about five other brands) that has been producing all electric vehicles for many years.

Of course, chassis and battery pack size, density, performance are going to quite different in an all electric consumer available entry but I think they have actually more technical experience in the performance space for providing a consumer available model than pretty much any other manufacturer - maybe Toyota would get a nod to overall experience.

just my .02$.

Agreed. Don't ever underestimate Porsche... the 918/919 hybrid kicked some serious A$$ on the track :cool:
Let's not forget that Porsche developed the first hybrid electric car ever produced ... Lohner-Porsche - Wikipedia

Lohner_Porsche.jpg
 
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Specs confirmed?

Porsche Taycan specs confirmed

Relevant quote: "As for range, the Taycan will aim for 310 miles in the European cycle."

European cycle? Is that true, can we get that confirmed by any other source? If that's correct, then it'll get what in the real world? Quite a bit less than a Tesla Model 3 LR, I guess.

Porsche Pecan. Nuts to this! For a long time this looked like one of the more credible Tesla challengers, and one of the very few that I might actually consider cross-shopping. Now the numbers are out, and it doesn't look so good. (I mean, aside from the body styling, which does in fact look fabulous. But you know, if I really wanted the most beautiful car in the world, I'd buy a vintage C3 Corvette Stingray and learn to ignore the fact that it sounds, smells and drives like an old tractor.)

According to the specs, the Taycan and a Model 3 Performance have very close acceleration times, but from what I'm seeing on the front page today, the Model 3 will probably end up being slightly quicker.

Given all the positive reviews I've read about the Model 3's handling, it's not clear whether the Taycan has any advantage left at all, aside from its sporty looks. But the Tesla has a supercharging network. (Oh, and a glass roof. But mostly a supercharging network.) Porsche brag about their 800V CCS Superduperchargers, or whatever they're going to call them, but then you read the fine print and learn they're going to be at Porsche Dealerships. That's when I start banging my head against the wall in frustration.

By the time it hits the streets, the Taycan will be matched or even outclassed in most basic measures by Tesla's "mass market" vehicle. Sad!
 
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Reactions: FlatSix911
Specs confirmed?

Porsche Taycan specs confirmed

Relevant quote: "As for range, the Taycan will aim for 310 miles in the European cycle."

European cycle? Is that true, can we get that confirmed by any other source? If that's correct, then it'll get what in the real world? Quite a bit less than a Tesla Model 3 LR, I guess.

Porsche Pecan. Nuts to this! For a long time this looked like one of the more credible Tesla challengers, and one of the very few that I might actually consider cross-shopping. Now the numbers are out, and it doesn't look so good. (I mean, aside from the body styling, which does in fact look fabulous. But you know, if I really wanted the most beautiful car in the world, I'd buy a vintage C3 Corvette Stingray and learn to ignore the fact that it sounds, smells and drives like an old tractor.)

According to the specs, the Taycan and a Model 3 Performance have very close acceleration times, but from what I'm seeing on the front page today, the Model 3 will probably end up being slightly quicker.

Given all the positive reviews I've read about the Model 3's handling, it's not clear whether the Taycan has any advantage left at all, aside from its sporty looks. But the Tesla has a supercharging network. (Oh, and a glass roof. But mostly a supercharging network.) Porsche brag about their 800V CCS Superduperchargers, or whatever they're going to call them, but then you read the fine print and learn they're going to be at Porsche Dealerships. That's when I start banging my head against the wall in frustration.

By the time it hits the streets, the Taycan will be matched or even outclassed in most basic measures by Tesla's "mass market" vehicle. Sad!
BUT...its still a Porsche...with a cool Key Fob. What's the gas mileage of a 911 or Cayman (pick any model)....who cares...its a Porsche 911/Cayman.