Porsche Mission E

[Jeff N]

Porsche brag about their 800V CCS Superduperchargers, or whatever they're going to call them, but then you read the fine print and learn they're going to be at Porsche Dealerships. That's when I start banging my head against the wall in frustration.

Untrue.

Electrify America (a subsidiary of VW Group like Porsche) is installing about 300 highway corridor locations in the first of four 2.5 year phases. The 300 locations are planned to be operational or under construction by June, 2019 which means they are nearly all likely to be open by the time that the Taycan becomes available in North America. Electrify Canada is being spun up in the same timeframe.

All evidence points towards each Electrify America location having a couple of “350 kW” charging spaces at each location along with another 2 to 8 “150 kW” charging spaces. These Electrify America locations cannot be at or nearby VW Group dealerships under the terms of the dieselgate settlements under which they are being funded.

A further 184 or so community DC charging locations are being installed in 17 metro areas in the US during the same timeframe that will have a mix of three to six 50 and 150 kW charging spaces.

That’s roughly equivalent to the Tesla Supercharger network breadth in 2016.

In addition to this, Porsche has said they are seeking to add 350 kW chargers at many of their ~180 dealerships.

 

[svp6]

Which European cycle? I cannot find a direct reference whether this is NEDC or WLTP - Porsche Newsroom just mentions 500 km on European cycle... I guess we will see it when they reveal the car or even later, when they submit for EPA certification.

 

[tonybelding]

Untrue.

I didn't make that up. That was from an interview with someone from Porsche, who talked about their high-speed chargers for the Taycan and said, specifically, that they were going to be at Porsche dealerships. If it's "untrue" then it's Porsche who's fibbing. However, he didn't say those chargers would be at other locations, but he didn't say they wouldn't be either. (Or if he did, it got cut from the article.)

Electrify America (a subsidiary of VW Group like Porsche) is installing about 300 highway corridor locations in the first of four 2.5 year phases. The 300 locations are planned to be operational or under construction by June, 2019 which means they are nearly all likely to be open by the time that the Taycan becomes available in North America. Electrify Canada is being spun up in the same timeframe.

That is interesting information. I'd sure like to see a map, though. I live in Texas, and I'm concerned that our wide open spaces and "flyover country" may not be high on their priorities.

All evidence points towards each Electrify America location having a couple of “350 kW” charging spaces at each location along with another 2 to 8 “150 kW” charging spaces. These Electrify America locations cannot be at or nearby VW Group dealerships under the terms of the dieselgate settlements under which they are being funded.

That is cool, and I desperately want to see that CCS network build out. They've got catching up to do, and they need to hustle. I would like to be able to shop freely for BEVs other than Tesla without this being a big concern. I'm just afraid that the CCS "standard" charging system, ironically, may be retarding progress. You have a standard that works with every brand, then every car company wants somebody else to pay for building the stations. Nobody feels directly responsible for it in the same way that Tesla are for their network.

 

[FlatSix911]

Untrue.

Electrify America (a subsidiary of VW Group like Porsche) is installing about 300 highway corridor locations in the first of four 2.5 year phases. The 300 locations are planned to be operational or under construction by June, 2019 which means they are nearly all likely to be open by the time that the Taycan becomes available in North America. Electrify Canada is being spun up in the same timeframe.
All evidence points towards each Electrify America location having a couple of “350 kW” charging spaces at each location along with another 2 to 8 “150 kW” charging spaces. These Electrify America locations cannot be at or nearby VW Group dealerships under the terms of the dieselgate settlements under which they are being funded. In addition to this, Porsche has said they are seeking to add 350 kW chargers at many of their ~180 dealerships.

The planned Porsche supercharging network is a joke compared to Tesla ... and I say that as long time owner of many Pcars

 

[Jeff N]

I'd sure like to see a map, though.

The small icons are planned locations. The larger grey locations are under construction. The larger black icons with green lightning bolts are open locations.

Here’s another version of the same map. The black dots are the ~300 planned highway locations. The 17 yellow blobs are the metro areas getting 184 DC charging plazas and several hundred L2 AC locations at business offices, shopping areas, and multi-unit residential complexes. All of this is supposed to be open or under construction by June of 2019. Three more expansions will follow over 7.5 more years.

See this article and the “See also” article linked at the end of it:

Electrify America preps first site with 10 chargers

 

[Jeff N]

The planned Porsche supercharging network is a joke compared to Tesla ... and I say that as long time owner of many Pcars

The 350 kW network is only around 2 spaces at each of the 300 initial locations but there are also more 150 kW chargers at those locations plus the 184 metro DC charging locations. It adds up to 484 new locations with just over 2000 new DC chargers for the US. Tesla now has 557 locations in the US with a bit under 6000 charging spaces. EVgo also has just over 1000 DC chargers but mostly in metro locations. Meanwhile, Tesla is expanding rapidly to prepare for all the new Model 3 cars.

Will it match Tesla’s network today or in June, 2019? No. But it is a massive improvement for CCS and it does roughly match Tesla’s network from 2016 and it will continue to expand and scale along with efforts from other charging providers.

 

[FlatSix911]

The 350 kW network is only around 2 spaces at each of the 300 initial locations but there are also more 150 kW chargers at those locations plus the 184 metro DC charging locations.

Will it match Tesla’s network today or in June, 2019? No. But it is a massive improvement for CCS and it does roughly match Tesla’s network from 2016 and it will continue to expand and scale along with efforts from other charging providers.

Porsche will be lucky to have 300 superchargers capable of 350 kW online by 2020... would like to see them succeed

 

[wdolson]

It looks like the Taycan's range will be somewhere around the Moxel X 75D or Model S 75D's range. Performance around that of a P3d with 2/3 the range. And we don't know the quality of the charging network, or how expensive it will be to charge. If it's in the range of some CCS and CHaDEMO chargers, there will be little cost advantage on road trips. But it's a Porsche...

 

[Valore]

It looks like the Taycan's range will be somewhere around the Moxel X 75D or Model S 75D's range. Performance around that of a P3d with 2/3 the range. And we don't know the quality of the charging network, or how expensive it will be to charge. If it's in the range of some CCS and CHaDEMO chargers, there will be little cost advantage on road trips. But it's a Porsche...

Model S and Model X ranges are 417km and 490km NEFZ, so in reality maybe half that.
Porsche says 500km / 310 miles for the Taycan, but not which cycle. If it's NEFZ too, its slightly better than Model S 75D range, if it's some new standard, the better.

About Performance, P3D might be better from 0-60, but who cares except teenagers. Everything else (corners, tracks, country roads...) will be typically Porsche - sweet.

For "fuel" costs. If you buy a Porsche (or a Model S/X) and have to worry about charging costs, you cannot afford it in the first place.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Model S and Model X ranges are 417km and 490km NEFZ, so in reality maybe half that.
Porsche says 500km / 310 miles for the Taycan, but not which cycle. If it's NEFZ too, its slightly better than Model S 75D range, if it's some new standard, the better.

It`s NEFZ/NEDC, so basically fantasy values.

 

[Valore]

It`s NEFZ, so basically fantasy values.

Yes, same fantasy standard as Tesla gives us in Europe.

 

[wdolson]

I'm going with the EPA ranges reported in the US. @techmaven speculated upthread the EPA range will be about 220 miles. I was being generous around 240 miles. In the US the S 75D is rated at 259 miles and the X 75D is 237 miles.

The way car ranges are rated in Europe vs the US is very different with different results. I do have to say the EPA ranges are pretty realistic if you drive carefully. When I first got the car my energy usage was way over the EPA estimates more strips, but now I'm usually very close and sometimes do a little better in decent weather. My range drops in the winter of course.

In any case I think the Taycan's range will likely be in the ballpark of one of Tesla's small battery cars. If the price is closer to larger battery Teslas it could be an uphill slog to sell many of them.

 

[WarpedOne]

Which European cycle? I cannot find a direct reference whether this is NEDC or WLTP - Porsche Newsroom just mentions 500 km on European cycle... I guess we will see it when they reveal the car or even later, when they submit for EPA certification.

European cycle is NEDC - New European Driving Cycle, on this test Model S 100D is rated at 632 km (387 miles), M3 might be over 400 because it is lighter.
WLTP stands for Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure and it gets around 70% of the NEDC number... 310 NEDC miles is somewhere around 210 WLTP miles.

Nissan Leaf 2018 is rated at 151 EPA miles and 175 WLTP miles.

So. ... this suggest some 190 EPA miles for the Taycan... tt would be funny if it wasn't sad ...

 

[svp6]

European cycle is NEDC - New European Driving Cycle, on this test Model S 100D is rated at 632 km (387 miles), M3 might be over 400 because it is lighter.
WLTP stands for Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure and it gets around 70% of the NEDC number... 310 NEDC miles is somewhere around 210 WLTP miles.

Nissan Leaf 2018 is rated at 151 EPA miles and 175 WLTP miles.

So. ... this suggest some 190 EPA miles for the Taycan... tt would be funny if it wasn't sad ...

I am aware of the difference in NEDC and WLTP. As EU has started using WLTP reporting, the new "European" is WLTP. Nothing in the press release suggests one or the other. You may be correct that 500 km is NEDC, and again you may not - will see when they release the official car. For the sake of Porsche, I sure hope they are able to deliver more than 190 EPA miles....

 

[Phrixotrichus]

I am aware of the difference in NEDC and WLTP. As EU has started using WLTP reporting, the new "European" is WLTP. Nothing in the press release suggests one or the other. You may be correct that 500 km is NEDC, and again you may not -

At least all the german press articles have been adamant about those 500km range being NEDC.

The numbers we have so far are definitely NEDC.
On the other hand it`s been a long time since Porsche updated their numbers. The 500km have been around since the very first announcement.
For Porsche`s sake I hope they`ve improved (a lot) on their battery since then....

 

[WarpedOne]

500km (~300 miles) of WLTP range translates into some 265 EPA miles.

The rumor has the battery around 90kWh usable. Model S90D got 294 EPA miles out of 85 usable kWh.
10% lower range due to stickier tires and worse aero is believable. Or those 90 kWh are really total capacity with less usable.

On the other hand getting only 190 EPA miles out of ~90kWh would be abysmal but still not inconceivable if the car is really prepped for track driving.

 

[wdolson]

If the car is designed for track driving, it needs more battery cooling which means bigger radiators and bigger vents for those radiators. That adds both weight and drag.

It's also possible they made some other trade off for track capability that ended up causing a range hit.

 

[Cirrus MS100D]

It’s not like the recent R&T article suggested the P3D with track mode engaged was a POS around Lime Rock, so as a longtime Porsche fan, I hope they put together something incredible, but fear this may be akin to Jaguar’s latest creation.

It’s almost like building pure BEVs is like... kinda hard or something? Even for “established” players.

 

[hydro 481]

Reading through this thread has me a bit confused. I was expecting the Taycan to have 310 miles range but I didn't know there was a difference between US and Europe. Are you guys saying the actual range of the Taycan in the US is 200-250 miles? That's really disappointing. I saw a recent video with Adam Levine test driving the car in Los Angeles and they stated the car gets 310 miles range. This is very misleading if it turns out to be a lot less than that.

 

[wdolson]

It’s not like the recent R&T article suggested the P3D with track mode engaged was a POS around Lime Rock, so as a longtime Porsche fan, I hope they put together something incredible, but fear this may be akin to Jaguar’s latest creation.

It’s almost like building pure BEVs is like... kinda hard or something? Even for “established” players.

Making low performance, short range EVs is not all that tough, there are lots of shops around the world converting old ICE into EVs. And most car companies have made short range EVs to meet CARB requirements. Where things get tough it when you want to squeeze out as much range as you can combined with tapping the potential of the electric motors.

Building an airplane that can get one person off the ground and fly around the airport isn't trivial, but it isn't tough either. Lots of people have made small home built aircraft that work. If you want to cross oceans or fly past the sound barrier, you need a top rate engineering staff and a large company with deep pockets (and usually government help to boot). Because those are more difficult problems than just flying around the airport.