Porsche Mission E

[lolachampcar]

Wow!
No buttons. Panamera owners will be lost.

 

[Ed Chan]

The only way they're going to be able to charge it that fast using CCS is the upcoming IEC 62196-3 standard (max 1000VDC @ 400A = 400kW) If they have 800V batteries, the most they can deliver is 320kW at peak, so 15 minutes at max wattage yields 80kWh. Factor in the last 25% or so gets tapered down, you're looking at maybe a 65-70kWh battery that charges from 0-full in 15 minutes. Getting 300 miles of range in a car that size should be doable if it's light enough AND they use the European drive cycle. What are the odds they use the skinny i3 tires?

Quick footnote to this, they did mention 80% at 15 minutes, much like Tesla says 80% in about 45 minutes. It's always the last 20% that take forever right?

Anyways, I'm keenly interested in this car and do hope it gets developed... 2019-2020 should be a good time for me to think about trading in my S85!

 

[apacheguy]

Count me skeptical. 80% in 15 minutes? No way, not Tesla and most certainly not Porsche. There is absolutely no infrastructure to support 800 V charging. Maybe they'll have 1 charger in the entire world that can pull it off. And what good does that do without a widespread network?

 

[mmccord]

I don't understand, is this supposed to be competing against the Model S, or against the Maximum Plaidster?

It looks to be similar in size to the S (a bit smaller I think?), but is slower than a P90DL and 5 years late.

Performance-wise, it seems like the Max Plaidster will beat it in every metric.

The 800v charging thing is intriguing, but is Porsche going to roll out any infrastructure?

 

[Chris TX]

Count me skeptical. 80% in 15 minutes? No way, not Tesla and most certainly not Porsche. There is absolutely no infrastructure to support 800 V charging. Maybe they'll have 1 charger in the entire world that can pull it off. And what good does that do without a widespread network?

The upcoming IEC 62196-3 standard is max 1000VDC @ 400A = 400kW. They are using a CCS connector, so "widespread network" will be a joke for a while. Most CCS chargers are going to be ~1/2 of a Supercharger for a while until something comes along that needs it.

I'm sure Tesla has this IEC standard on their roadmap. I'm also sure the new batteries that come out of the Gigafactory will be 800V+ for full sized sedans and SUVs (and trucks!)

Remember those liquid cooled thin cables? They should be able to handle the higher voltage with the same amperage just fine. Robot snakes to handle the 800VDC, even

 

[FOCUSEV]

I hope it comes to fruition, VAG's KERS system they currently use only on race cars would be a game changer if available in a BEV. Imagine your Tesla, Leaf, Focus, Fiat, ect. where the regen goes to a spinning (170,000 rpm) Flywheel that provides all the power for acceleration. Your battery is only used for steady state driving. rather than getting on the freeway at 5 or 600 Watts per mile you are at 150 WPM due to KERS. Imagine the range increase, a 70D would have a 300+ mile range. Their system works so well their 24 hour race cars have no battery only the KERS system to power a 300HP electric motor for corner exit and maximum acceleration.

 

[George Parrott]

Tesla's product plan, outlined about 2 years ago at a stockholder's meeting I believe, had the Roadster II coming after the Model 3 and a cross-over version on the Model 3 platform, as the Gen II roadster would be on that smaller sedan platform as well.....

According to that powerpoint highlight from 2 years or so ago.....

 

[Ed Hart]

Right. The interior center console is far too prominent for this to be an EV-only design.

I seriously doubt that this door configuration would even come close to meeting the side impact requirements. Look for a B pillar in a final design...if we ever see such a final design!

 

[larmor]

I wonder how TM would be treated if it started releasing concept car designs, instead of real cars...

 

[brucet999]

There is absolutely no infrastructure to support 800 V charging. Maybe they'll have 1 charger in the entire world that can pull it off. And what good does that do without a widespread network?

There is already a network of VW, Porsche, Audi dealerships all over the world. It would be a simple matter to install charging stations since they already have large capacity electrical installations and most of them are located in auto malls near major highways.

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I wonder how TM would be treated if it started releasing concept car designs, instead of real cars...

IF??? Where have you been for the last 6 years?

 

[Oba]

There is already a network of VW, Porsche, Audi dealerships all over the world. It would be a simple matter to install charging stations since they already have large capacity electrical installations and most of them are located in auto malls near major highways.

If there is ANYTHING that we have learned in the past 4 years... dealership refueling / recharging is dumb. Dealerships are not in logical places where you need energy (see Tesla Supercharger map for the correct way to do that). Lot's of other reasons, too.

In California, a load of 800v * 400a is a serious amount of cash to operate, whether there is power at the dealership, or not. No dealer is going to pay hundreds to thousands of dollars per month in fees and tariffs to appease a bunch of very wealthy owners driving extremely limited edition cars.

 

[perkiset]

If there is ANYTHING that we have learned in the past 4 years... dealership refueling / recharging is dumb. Dealerships are not in logical places where you need energy (see Tesla Supercharger map for the correct way to do that). Lot's of other reasons, too.

Exactly. Adding: They think that this race is just about the car, and then make charging the bastard after thought - rather than noting that charging ubiquity is actually the killer app.

 

[voyager]

VW CEO Winterkorn reveals EV plans: Porsche and Audi lead VW's electric revolution | Autocar

New Audi E-tron Quattro is said to be aimed at Tesla Model X.

 

[widodh]

1) 500 km on a full charge in a lighter sportscar, though 4-door and likely larger than the Roadster sounds to me like a 70kWh or so battery (the 500 kms being optimistic as always in press release cars). 0-80% in 15 minutes would mean a very high charge rate, something like 200+ kW (Tesla's SC does 120 kW). I'd like to see that connector... Being a bit more realistic let's say the 500 km is really 350 km at 160 Wh/km (careful driving) which would mean 56kWh battery and that the 15 minutes of charging is really 20 minutes - that would put the 0-80% charge power at 130kW which seems more realistic.

800V That's what they'll use.

They say they are aiming for a 800V system voltage instead of 400V which they say is typical now (what does the Model S have?) - that would cut the needed current at same charge rate by a factor of two and therefore reduce the heat build up. But no charging infrastructure there for this yet, though they still have a few years until 2019. We´ll see if Porsche time is any quicker than Tesla/Elon time .

From what I've heard is that CCS 2.0 developed by Porsche, VW and Audi will support 1000VDC and 250A. That's 250kW of power.

I heard this from Fastned in the Netherlands.

 

[Nosken]

History repeats itself. Dr Fedinand Porsche's first car design in 1898 was electric all wheel drive. Ferdinand Porsche’s First Car Was Electric - History in the Headlines

Prof. Ferdinand Porsche Created the First Functional Hybrid Car

 

[ScepticMatt]

Pics seem to show a CCS connector, so not sure how that will work with the charging rates they are proposing, or the supposed 800v battery.

The 400 upcoming SLAM CCS charge points are upgradeable to 800/850 V 200 A

 

[Zythryn]

I applaud Porsche for this and look forward to it hitting the market.
As for charging, they don't need a single public charger anywhere in the world to sell some of these.
If they want to sell lots of these, they will need a charging network.

It MAY work at dealers, although it hasn't worked for others trying this.

 

[AustinPowers]

"Porsche Turbo Charger." Ha.

Porsche Mission E electric saloon revealed at Frankfurt | Autocar

I think that exhausts* the "...charger" pun list, but maybe there's another one I am not thinking of.

Hypercharger
Gigacharger
Megacharger
Powercharger
Ubercharger
Incredicharger
Warpcharger
Dodgecharger (oops)
.
.
.
:wink:

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If there was a car company that could do it, I would bet on Porsche. They have history with KERS type systems in their race cars and a dedicated core group of engineers that MIGHT be able to switch from ICE to BeV thinking.

Plus the history. The first cars Porsche ever made were BEVs after all, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner_Porsche

Edit: Sorry Nosken, didn't see that you beat me to it.

 

[techmaven]

Can anyone explain how upping the pack voltage has any affect on c-rate? I don't see the correlation.

I'm thinking the battery chemistry for the Porsche concept shown doesn't exist. There are some chemistries that can take very high charge rates, but they typically have poor specific energy.

 

[CHGolferJim]

Traditional Porsche styling, beautiful car. I'm thinking they are mainly trying to freeze Porsche owners in place and halt the bleeding (sales drain to Tesla) for a few years.