Porsche Mission E

[avoigt]

I think this is the first video showing a Taycan or Cross Turismo charging in public at “800V”. I just posted a brief article about it to my website.

Has anyone seen a video showing a Porsche prototype charging at “800V” like this before?

View attachment 350623

First seen: new video shows Porsche Cross Turismo prototype charging at 245 kW

Interesting video but the guy presented said he only can repeat technical specs Porsche told him, still the charging part is interesting. I believe they will be able to provide very fast charging but my main question is rather what that makes with the battery on the long run and to what extend the life will be limited. They give 8 years warranty for the Battery as well but I drove a Porsche and can tell you that a Porsche warranty is kind of worthless. They are known for really bad customer service. I can testify on that.

Question to the Experts here:

He talks about permanent synchronizes and not synchronized motors claimed that Teslas not synchronized ones are less efficient than the ones Porsche uses and that is why they can go on race tracks and keep accelerate multiple times. I heard that argumentations quite often from Porsche.

There are certainly pros and cons for both types and I assume Tesla did decide with good reasons for not synchronization.

Who can list the pros and cons?

Appreciated!

 

[Jeff N]

He talks about permanent synchronizes and not synchronized motors claimed that Teslas not synchronized ones are less efficient than the ones Porsche uses and that is why they can go on race tracks and keep accelerate multiple times. I heard that argumentations quite often from Porsche.

There are certainly pros and cons for both types and I assume Tesla did decide with good reasons for not synchronization.

Who can list the pros and cons?

Tesla has always used non-synchronous “induction” motors until the Model 3. In the Model 3 the rear motor is now a synchronous permanent magnet motor but the front motor is still an induction motor

Induction motors are cheaper because they have no permanent magnets and they can efficiently spin freely without power. However, they can run hot under high power continuous use such as during racing.

Permanent magnet motors are more expensive but can be smaller for the same output torque and can run more efficiently but cannot spin freely without power.

 

[hiroshiy]

There are still many 400V chargers available and if Taycan charges at one of these stations, would it reconfigure battery to 400V, changing series connection to parallel? How many contractors are required for such a switch?

 

[Jeff N]

There are still many 400V chargers available and if Taycan charges at one of these stations, would it reconfigure battery to 400V, changing series connection to parallel? How many contractors are required for such a switch?

Porsche has said that it can charge at older chargers that cannot go above 500V. They haven’t said how this will actually happen.

It seems like this could be done with contactors that could reconfigure the pack between two halves at 400V in parallel or two halves in series at 800V but I’m not an electrical engineer. Another approach is to use a DC to DC voltage converter when charging at lower voltage chargers to bump it up to 800V.

I talk about the issues in an article written earlier this year:

How does 800V charging work?

 

[hiroshiy]

I think no way to do DCDC... too much loss. For contactors I think three extra contactors are necessary to reconfigure the pack, and all three are each single point of failure. However it can be done at reasonable cost.

 

[Jeff N]

I think no way to do DCDC... too much loss.

I’m not sure. DC to DC circuits are part of some very efficient hybrids like the Toyota Prius and newer Honda 2-motor hybrids. Why? Because they found that adding the DC to DC circuit ultimately didn’t materially hurt and perhaps improved their overall efficiency as they strived to improve their mpg.

If the pack is natively 800V (which makes sense since the rest of the car was apparently engineered for 800V) then the DC to DC may only need to up-convert the 45-50 kW rates supported at older chargers that are limited to 500V. The DC to DC circuits in hybrids already handle that level of power.

I’m actually inclined to think Porsche will go the DC to DC approach.

 

[VT_EE]

Tesla will likely maintain a competitive edge, but others won't be far behind. Automakers reverse engineer competitors' products all the time; there aren't many secrets in the industry (just ask VW).

For many, Tesla's advantage won't matter. The 3 is better than the Bolt by most standards, but the Bolt is good enough for many.


And yet Android has ~80% market share... "First mover advantage" isn't often what it's cracked up to be. Just ask all those pre-iPod MP3 players (I probably still have a Creative Labs MP3 player in a drawer somewhere).

A lot of the “special sauce” in a Tesla is in the software controlling the battery, inverters, etc. This is not so easily copied (at least legally).

And yet Apple makes far more profit than any of the Android competitors. I wonder why that is? Well integrated and functioning hardware/software? Sounds sort of like Tesla.

 

[PhantomX]

A lot of the “special sauce” in a Tesla is in the software controlling the battery, inverters, etc. This is not so easily copied (at least legally).

And yet Apple makes far more profit than any of the Android competitors. I wonder why that is? Well integrated and functioning hardware/software? Sounds sort of like Tesla.

Supply chain and cost management also contribute greatly to Apple's profit. That's one of the key advantages of existing car manufacturers, and something Tesla needs to get better at. We know Tesla can make good cars, but they have so far not shown to have good cost management capabilities.

 

[Spidy]

 

[FlatSix911]

More pricing information from InsideEV's... Top-Line Porsche Taycan To Be Called "Taycan Turbo"

...there will be three versions of Taycan (the name stands for “lively young horse”), and base prices for each version.
The top of the line version is called Taycan Turbo ... and starts above $130,000.
​

• Porsche Taycan – starts in the low $90,000
• Porsche Taycan 4S – from high $90,000
• Porsche Taycan Turbo – over $130,000

 

[tivoboy]

More pricing information from InsideEV's... Top-Line Porsche Taycan To Be Called "Taycan Turbo"

...there will be three versions of Taycan (the name stands for “lively young horse”), and base prices for each version.
The top of the line version is called Taycan Turbo ... and starts above $130,000.
​

• Porsche Taycan – starts in the low $90,000
• Porsche Taycan 4S – from high $90,000
• Porsche Taycan Turbo – over $130,000

Yes I saw this this morning. What happened to the "starting at 70k" model? Makes much more sense though at these prices.

 

[bxr140]

What happened to the "starting at 70k" model?

Nipping at the heels of the 35k Model 3, no doubt.

At least we can be confident that the anti-Porsche media will surely scrutinize the price points as much as the anti-Tesla crowd.

 

[gavine]

Turbo? I realize the word "turbo" has come to mean "fast", but using that term on an EV is sacrilege.

 

[tivoboy]

Turbo? I realize the word "turbo" has come to mean "fast", but using that term on an EV is sacrilege.

Yeah, I found that a bit odd. I'm sure they went back and forth with whether or not to keep product naming conventions similar and familiar to the customer. Putting an S badge, or 4S badge or Turbo or Turbo S badge on the back on any porsche is understandable and comfortable to any porsche enthusiast or consumer.

But, with such a direct shift to a full EV vehicle (not the hybrids, or partial EV models like the 918) I would think they would come up with some possible new terms.

Why couldn't they have called it the Taycan WARP instead of the Turbo. or Taycan WD (for Warp Drive). Or the Taycan RAILS (for the AWD model). Or heck just Taycan AWD for the Taycan All Wheel Drive WARP DRIVE model.

Come on you Schwabbs, have some fun with it.

 

[tomas]

Yaycan schneller?

 

[Cirrus MS100D]

Can I also call a slight amount of "take your grains of salt" that the "Brand Ambassador" (which appears to be meaningless fluff for a salesperson who might have gotten some "extra" training by Porsche by role-playing as a customer...) is nothing more than a salesperson and may not know squat about the actual details that are now reverberating around the entire internet as "fact?"

In other words, if a Tesla salesperson tells me all the details about the new Model X 2 including naming, pricing, and trim levels, I know the accuracy of those statements is literally zero. I would also assume Porsche "Brand Ambassadors" know as much about the Taycan as I do, which is not very much, and are happy to take your $2500 deposit and make up any "facts" they like, just like any other car manufacturer releasing a new, hotly anticipated vehicle (*ahemTeslacough, though to be fair, they ALL do it.)

 

[Canuck]

Turbo? I realize the word "turbo" has come to mean "fast", but using that term on an EV is sacrilege.

Yeah, I get your point. But at the same time, "turbo" is a great word, and belongs more to the instant torque and acceleration of an EV than to be condemned to history along with the slow chugging oil soaked gears of an ICE. And Porsche can't use "insane" or "ludicrous", and making up their own terms from an adolescent "Spaceballs" movie likely wouldn't go over the same as it did with Tesla -- so it seems "turbo" it is. I look forward to seeing them on the roads.

 

[roblab]

And all this excitement about charging at 800 volts, maybe several thousand volts in the near future, makes me wonder. Why?? What is the big hurry? It takes me maybe 20 minutes to charge enough to make it to my destination, and when I get there I just sit and listen to relatives I hardly know tell me stuff I don't believe. I'd almost rather sit in my car and visit with wifey, or read a book, or both. Or your destination is "home" and you want to hurry so you can catch the last of that great TV program your wife recorded, right?

So the Porsche can charge in five minutes, after they drive ten minutes off the freeway and find the charger (I assume they have maps displayed with charger icons on it). And it's full while you're still in the bathroom drying off your hands.

And I would hope they allow home charging, even though it's only 220 volts, 32 amps. Which takes hours, not minutes.

Give me a break. Literally.

 

[tivoboy]

And all this excitement about charging at 800 volts, maybe several thousand volts in the near future, makes me wonder. Why?? What is the big hurry? It takes me maybe 20 minutes to charge enough to make it to my destination, and when I get there I just sit and listen to relatives I hardly know tell me stuff I don't believe.

Yeah, I had a similar experience when doing our first long (1200 miles) road trip. I DID do some planning of where I thought I wanted to stop based on time of day and bio-breaks, lunch, traffic, that sort of thing. And I did plan to arrive at an SC with LOW state of charge (SOC) about 8-15% in hopes of charging at faster rates but never to full.

Our first stop was indeed a bio-break, drive break (2.5 hours drive time) and coffee break (well, GET coffee at least, not drink it all). We ended up spending 22 minutes total at the SC. Put in just under 190 miles on the car. What most people don't really take into consideration is that of this 22 minutes, at LEAST 12-15 was the NON EV related stuff. WC, coffee, relax, stretch, etc. Had I been at a gas fueling station it would have been at least 7 minutes to re-fuel, 7 minutes for all the NON re-fueling stuff. So, in the end I spent a whopping 5-7 minutes EXTRA for this stop.

The next stop was 12 minutes, granted I did re-fuel but we didn't need it. This was bio, stretch, throw out coffee cup from stop 1, etc. considering it a fueling stop it was at MOST 5 additional minutes.

The next stop was simply opportunistically at a food/shopping establishment so I'm not counting it, but had I had my AMG i would have required another 10-12 minutes. So, overall net net for 550 miles, I spent NO extra time for the EV and at MOST 10-12 minutes extra. It's something, but for 7.5 hours of driving overall it's a bit of a rounding error. AND it cost me nearly 1/3 of the cost in fuel/energy to travel that distance.

So, I think people need to think of re-charging and EV as "what is the INCREMENTAL additional cost in time" and that at most is minutes.

Not to mention, as you did, but I DID charge at my destination to full and it was free and so I didn't have to do any stopping for that part of the re-fueling.

 

[Canuck]

With the winter weather in full swing here, I'm back to driving my Tahoe hybrid over the mountain passes to my cabin. I much prefer the coffee shop supercharger stop than the gas station fill up. So what if it takes a bit longer.

All I really gotta do is live and die, Im in a hurry but dont know why. - Alabama

It takes me maybe 20 minutes to charge enough to make it to my destination, and when I get there I just sit and listen to relatives I hardly know tell me stuff I don't believe. I'd almost rather sit in my car and visit with wifey, or read a book, or both.

Ha! I can relate and that sure gave me a good laugh. This is how I also look at it...

Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans. - John Lennon

I've experienced plenty of life while supercharging, met interesting people and enjoyed my wife too (but not in the car while supercharging!).