Porsche starting to take Tesla seriously

[brianman]

Driving 250-300km/h the rage of BEV cars is abysmal.

I have very little rage in my BEVs at 155mph; I wouldn't call that abysmal.

Driving 250-300km/h the range of BEV cars is abysmal.

As is life expectancy.

Out of curiosity, does anybody have numbers for various makes of "high performance" vehicles range @ 155mph? It's a data point that might be useful for some "Tesla Time" chats.

 

[Buckeye2320]

Has anyone seen what Rimac Automobili out of Croatia is doing? 600 km/372 mile range with a 92 kWh battery.

Specifications - Rimac Automobili

 

[Hans (Amsterdam)]

Porsche Carrera S - range 280 km @ 250 kmh ( 175mls @ 155 mph)
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - range 200 km @ 250 kmh ( 125mls @ 155 mph )
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - range 150 km @ 270 kmh ( 93mls @ 168 mph ), takes 33 minutes to empty the tank.

 

[lolachampcar]

and both the Porsche and the Tesla REALLY suck as rockets for getting to the moon......
If you are going to go 155 mph for a consistent amount of time, Darwin would suggest you do so in a purpose build race car in a controlled environment (I'm thinking North Loop here). But, if you really must do so on the Autoban then you really do need an ICE. I think we Tesla types should concede that one to the Germans. Should they choose to make their purchase decisions based on that one very narrow use case then their impression of their superior cognitive capabilities will have exceeded their actual cognitive capabilities Of course that is just my opinion.

 

[rogbmw]

and both the Porsche and the Tesla REALLY suck as rockets for getting to the moon......
If you are going to go 155 mph for a consistent amount of time, Darwin would suggest you do so in a purpose build race car in a controlled environment (I'm thinking North Loop here). But, if you really must do so on the Autoban then you really do need an ICE. I think we Tesla types should concede that one to the Germans. Should they choose to make their purchase decisions based on that one very narrow use case then their impression of their superior cognitive capabilities will have exceeded their actual cognitive capabilities Of course that is just my opinion.

I agree with Bill on this one. If one is to drive at that rate, than good luck......in the real world. Maybe here in the USA - In Nevada - on a clear day - with little to no traffic. But, I happen to live in areas where there is lots of traffic. And if one goes much more than 10 miles an hour over the speed limit, one takes a huge chance. Stupid people with no lane discipline, snow birds who come to Florida and think that they do not have to look behind them when they back up, much less look more than 5 car lengths in front of them, much less check those things on the sides of the car called mirrors before they pull out directly in front of you (I can attest first hand how good the brakes are on my Model S as someone did exactly this). So, in the "real world" my 85Kw Model S is fine.

Having lived in Europe and enjoying driving there in our BMW for 5 years, I can understand what points are being made from that aspect. But, as I have said before, I would take my S over anything else here in the US for driving every day.

 

[wycolo]

> a 5 year old Skoda Octavia Diesel Kombi and then drive it until it falls apart [SebastianR]

This is the fun part of AutoBahn driving - sidestepping all those Skoda pieces on the pavement.
--

 

[SebastianR]

> a 5 year old Skoda Octavia Diesel Kombi and then drive it until it falls apart [SebastianR]

This is the fun part of AutoBahn driving - sidestepping all those Skoda pieces on the pavement.
--

Well, yes and no: frankly, whenever I drive on the Autobahn, there seems to be a crazy amount of traffic. Realistically, I don't think anybody can go more than 160km/h for any serious stretch/time. But then again, I'm not the kind of guy who would get up at 3am to drive the A9 in some god-forsaken back-alley just to for being able to floor it all the way.

It is an interesting cultural observation that while top-speed is important to Germans, the 0 to 60 time is more important in the US. Funnily enough there seems to be the notion that it is "unfair" to race an electric car against an ICE vehicle - as the ICE vehicle is going to lose...

The 7 rules of Dodge SRT Hellcat ownership

 

[3mp_kwh]

I think we Tesla types should concede that one to the Germans. Should they choose to make their purchase decisions based on that one very narrow use case then their impression of their superior cognitive capabilities will have exceeded their actual cognitive capabilities Of course that is just my opinion.

Porsche practically funds modern racing efforts on most un-Porsche like vehicles, like Cayenne/Panamera. But that's cognitively okay, since each has put down the all-important 12 mile 'Ring time. On Tesla, CEO Mueller says "this technology has problems", yet he can't seem to get a 'Ring around what they are. Poor Mueller.

 

[lolachampcar]

One problem is that MS can not make a lap of the North Loop without going into limp or power reduction mode. Mind you, that is a problem Porsche sees that I do not.

 

[electracity]

I think all manufacturers expected many more Tesla battery fires. Consider total miles driven X number of cells.

Instead they got problem door handle. Must be disappointing.

I can see Tesla offering a 1000HP+ car after they get the model 3 established. Assuming they can do it within the space constraints of the existing motors and inverter. They may just be tire limited in the P85D in doing higher torque with just software changes. They perhaps are thermal limited too on the existing P85D.

 

[wws]

I think all manufacturers expected many more Tesla battery fires. Consider total miles driven X number of cells.

Instead they got problem door handle. Must be disappointing..

Funny you mention that. The drivers side outside door handle just broke on my old Porsche last week. And two weeks ago it flunked the California smog test. (Fixed with a new O2 sensor.) I wonder if it is trying to tell me something...

 

[electracity]

Funny you mention that. The drivers side outside door handle just broke on my old Porsche last week. And two weeks ago it flunked the California smog test. (Fixed with a new O2 sensor.) I wonder if it is trying to tell me something...

With the Model 3, Tesla will have the chassis to make a proper sports car. Although I think sports sedan is all we will get for many years.

 

[smac]

Their hybrids with pitifully low electric range mean nothing.

Actually they mean quite a lot if it gets them the same taxation benefits in key EU markets. VW, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche are doing the bare minimum to obtain ULEV certification via PHEV-ification of their line up. This entitles the cars to the exact same benefits as the pure BEVs.

I can actually see some sense in this. I could easily buy a PHEV do 99% of my miles on EV, and for the odd long trip fall back to an ICE. Is this better carting round a huge amount of batteries I simply don't need 99% of the time or a small ICE? The former means relying on an SpC to be enroute, and having enough capacity to not have to queue. The latter being the equivalent of having an SpC wherever you go.

Here in the UK, I suspect central planners are sat back saying "OK, if everyone get's a BEV, how on earth are we going to provide sufficient peak grid capacity to cover the demand for rapid charging". This roll out of sufficient peak grid capacity to power cars like the S will involve massive investment, not all from the private sector. Like all government projects of this scale it will probably take decades. It will be mired in self interest and resultant conflict of standards (CCS/SpC/CHAdeMO), not to mention the real worry government faces on loss of fuel duties.

Frankly our current public charging is shambolic, and yes the Tesla SpC model is great if you can afford one, but does it scale to mass adoption in the 5 year window? Probably not. (I'm genuinely worried what the experience will look like in 2016 when the "D" cars double our fleet, whilst we've had virtually zero SpC expansion in the UK.)

The most likely option here IMO is for gradual increase in tax benefits based on EV only range. Only when we have laid down the groundwork's to scale beyond a few % of the cars on the market being BEV's, will the taxation truly diverge between BEVs and PHEVs, and that's when the Germans will be more interested.

 

[fortytwo]

...

Here in the UK, I suspect central planners are sat back saying "OK, if everyone get's a BEV, how on earth are we going to provide sufficient peak grid capacity to cover the demand for rapid charging". This roll out of sufficient peak grid capacity to power cars like the S will involve massive investment, not all from the private sector.
...

If done correctly, then there is no need for extra peak grid capacity. Some Tesla Superchargers aleady have batteries to "shave" the peaks off. Watch this video by JB Straubel at about minute 23 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSox7mLbyE I am sure Tesla will equip all of the Superchargers over time with batteries, because it is cheaper for them than to pay the utility company for the worst peak demand scenario. Many SuperChargers also already have solar panels that also "unload" the grid as they usually produce during peak demand hours.

For my case, I recently installed 10kW of solar which supplies energy to the houses around me during peak day hours, "unloading" the grid. The charging of my Model S is scheduled for 22:00h (10pm). So it occurs during low loads on the grid. The recently announced Tesla battery systems are already being planned to be used by companies in California and Germany to "help" the grid out. Charge them during low grid load times and discharge them during high grid load times. That will be much cheaper than sizing the grid for the worst case scenario.

Our solar provides over 2000 Tesla driving kilometers each week in summer in Canada. I assume the annual average will be over 50,000 (31,000 miles) driving kilometers a year. Much more than I can use. I do not have winter the exact numbers yet. The system is too new.

Happily driving on sunshine. :smile:

 

[gavine]

If done correctly, then there is no need for extra peak grid capacity. Some Tesla Superchargers aleady have batteries to "shave" the peaks off. Watch this video by JB Straubel at about minute 23 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSox7mLbyE I am sure Tesla will equip all of the Superchargers over time with batteries, because it is cheaper for them than to pay the utility company for the worst peak demand scenario. Many SuperChargers also already have solar panels that also "unload" the grid as they usually produce during peak demand hours.

For my case, I recently installed 10kW of solar which supplies energy to the houses around me during peak day hours, "unloading" the grid. The charging of my Model S is scheduled for 22:00h (10pm). So it occurs during low loads on the grid. The recently announced Tesla battery systems are already being planned to be used by companies in California and Germany to "help" the grid out. Charge them during low grid load times and discharge them during high grid load times. That will be much cheaper than sizing the grid for the worst case scenario.

Our solar provides over 2000 Tesla driving kilometers each week in summer in Canada. I assume the annual average will be over 50,000 (31,000 miles) driving kilometers a year. Much more than I can use. I do not have winter the exact numbers yet. The system is too new.

Happily driving on sunshine. :smile:

My Solar City 5.865kW solar array is estimated to produce 7,841kWh per year. At 310wH/mile, that's over 25,000 miles of driving per year. Much more than I will use in the car. Granted, my house uses more so I still depend on the grid for excess power needs.

 

[smac]

If done correctly, then there is no need for extra peak grid capacity

Sure it can help, and I certainly agree we need to do something to store power from unpredictable renewables. I completely agree at a seldom used site, it will really help, you can have enough batteries charging overnight on a smaller feed to augment/cover peak daytime usage (which is when the cars are likely on the road). The problem is as usage goes up you are going to need more batteries, and ultimately a bigger feed put in.

Unfortunately there are key routes here in the UK where they can't even put in 50kW CHAdeMO rapids due to insufficient cabling capacity. For mass adoption this situation will need to be resolved and will be expensive.

There's lots of talk of private "mini-grids" delivering "last mile" sort of stuff out of battery banks (from community production) but it's still mainly pipe dreams. We are looking at a minimum 5-10 year window IMHO before this is meaningful to deliver the sort of peaky requirements something like a Supercharger has.

So actually I think VW (Porsche) are actually taking a pragmatic approach in the near term. I'd love for them to build more EV capacity in the cars, which are frankly little more than tax dodges at the moment, but I'm not convinced pure BEV is necessarily achievable for mass market now either.

Happily driving on sunshine. :smile:

Well done! Great to hear.

And just so you don't go away from this thinking the UK is a complete basket case, in these sorts of issues. The UK has recently opened the largest grid storage battery in Europe (10MWh @ 6MW) (Leighton Buzzard electricity facility tests 'largest battery' - BBC News). Ostensibly this was done by one of our power companies, however most of the money came from government grants. If my calcs are right this puts price of large scale grid storage at around $3000 per kWh (all up costs, inc: inverters, rectifiers, hookup, building construction etc., not just batteries)

BTW I'm as keen for EV'ification as the next man, I just think sometimes we can easily gloss over the issues of scaling and my view is that is why the German car manufacturers (and to some extent our government) are taking the stance they are. 95% of mileage covered under EV, for 1% of the infrastructure spend.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I agree with Bill on this one. If one is to drive at that rate, than good luck......in the real world. Maybe here in the USA - In Nevada - on a clear day - with little to no traffic. But, I happen to live in areas where there is lots of traffic. And if one goes much more than 10 miles an hour over the speed limit, one takes a huge chance. Stupid people with no lane discipline, snow birds who come to Florida and think that they do not have to look behind them when they back up, much less look more than 5 car lengths in front of them, much less check those things on the sides of the car called mirrors before they pull out directly in front of you (I can attest first hand how good the brakes are on my Model S as someone did exactly this). So, in the "real world" my 85Kw Model S is fine.

Having lived in Europe and enjoying driving there in our BMW for 5 years, I can understand what points are being made from that aspect. But, as I have said before, I would take my S over anything else here in the US for driving every day.

And let's be clear about one thing:

It is not Europe that drives like that, it is only Germany (and even there just a high-end niche). This argument against Tesla is extremely limited in scope, but amplified disproportionately by the fact that Germany also happens to be the home of a sizeable high-end ICE industry.

Speed-limits and driving culture (speed-wise) in rest of the Europe are much more in line with the U.S. one than the German one.

 

[lolachampcar]

I think smac's input here on the UK and perhaps even Europe as a whole is incredibly insightful for those on this side of the pond trying to understand how BEVs can penetrate the world market. I would love to see a more holistic approach that combines PV with stationary storage to support a supercharger network. I realize that is a pipe dream but then a 125 KW DC fast charging infrastructure in the US was a similar pipe dream a few years ago. Somewhere along the line special interest has gotten so special that we have lost our ability to implement dreams.

 

[jgs]

We are looking at a minimum 5-10 year window IMHO before this is meaningful to deliver the sort of peaky requirements something like a Supercharger has.

On the other hand, even at my most optimistic it's hard for me to imagine BEVs having sufficient adoption to cause a grid meltdown in less than those 5-10 years. Unless your grid is already teetering on the knife-edge of disaster I suppose, but in that case you're worried about new toaster adoption, never mind the EVs.

 

[smac]

On the other hand, even at my most optimistic it's hard for me to imagine BEVs having sufficient adoption to cause a grid meltdown in less than those 5-10 years. Unless your grid is already teetering on the knife-edge of disaster I suppose, but in that case you're worried about new toaster adoption, never mind the EVs.

I'm sure they are over the moon with stuff like switching to LED's for lighting and all the other energy saving measures constantly being rolled out/subsidised, let alone banning toasters and electric kettles! (There are already legislations ready to roll out limiting the power vacuum cleaners can run)

Even so they are still worried about EVs home charging, let alone Superchargers/Rapids
Electric vehicles and the UK’s energy infrastructure | National Grid

The assertion is they will primarily manage additional EV load through pricing strategies, pushing as many people onto overnight baseload as possible, not necessarily additional peak demand capacity.

I'm not sure the grid itself will melt down per se, it is however likely that running sufficient power cables from the core network substations out to places like motorway services will be problematic within the 5-10 year window, and definitely a problem Ecotricity have faced. (I do wonder if this is why we predominantly have 2 stall SCs in the UK?)