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Porsche Taycan Vs Model S

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Other cars hit EPA range with ease.
Just to be 100% clear, the EPA range includes that buffer. There is no way around that.

Similarly, the Porsche is driven until it stops moving (I do not know what sort of buffer they have below 0% on the Porsche - but that buffer would also be included in EPA miles - which likely makes the Porsche results even more impressive - depending on the size of any buffer there).

Presumably Porsches aren't going to show capacity loss either for a while, since they'll take that out of the top buffer (probably? I assume people have data on this now). You can do a lot with a very large battery, but the Porsche efficiency is still pretty impressive (if it's the 350Wh/mi that I'm estimating, anyway - would be great to have some data - I guess I can back it out at 75mph from Bjorn's video...).

Looks like (168.6km*209Wh/km - 4.6km*290Wh/km)/(168.6km-4.6km) = 207Wh/km @ 120km/hr. (So 333Wh/mi at 74.5mph.). But this was not round trip and no idea what his elevation change was... So 350Wh/mi at 80mph is probably a bit low (15% higher aero drag so something like 10% higher overall drag, which would be about 365Wh/mi).

I'd basically ignore these calculations since we can't know the elevation change from the video...
 

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Of course, if the Electrify America network is failing you all the time, that could make for a pretty long and annoying road trip. That seems like currently the main obstacle, and I do hope this network gets bigger and more reliable over time. And I hope that Tesla eventually provides an adapter - will be useful some of the time in certain special scenarios, I think.
(Emphasis mine)

Are you hoping that Tesla will come up with an adaptor to allow non-Tesla cars to charge at Superchargers?

While I can see potential for that being advantageous for Tesla owners in the distant future (more demand = incentive to build more), I really hope it isn't any time soon as they barely keeping up with the Tesla demand.
 
No I mean the other way around!
nobody is building an adaptor to allow their cars to charge on the supercharger network, nor would it be possible to build one. the supercharger network is not wired to work with any car but a tesla.
elon offered to allow other manufacturers to use his network, for a royalty per car, and not one has taken him up on the offer.
the CCS protocol is is becoming the defacto charging standard and the tesla network is akin to a betamax.
there are adaptors available to allow non teslas to access the tesla L2 destination chargers.
 
nobody is building an adaptor to allow their cars to charge on the supercharger network, nor would it be possible to build one. the supercharger network is not wired to work with any car but a tesla.

he CCS protocol
Like I said, I meant the other way around.

So, an adapter to add to a CCS charging station to convert it to a Tesla charge handle so you can use CCS stations with a Tesla...

This will probably eventually happen in the US. But we will see.

Obviously the value here is to expand the ability to use the Tesla in more remote areas that are not well served by the Supercharger network; it's kind of a rare case. Or if a Supercharger is closed... It's basically "in case of emergency" only.
 
And currently it is likely much easier to do long distance travel in any Tesla. As long as you don’t travel on a busy holiday. Probably the key area where Tesla has a clear edge at the moment.
and this comment is based on what?

As of March 2020, Tesla operates 16,103 Superchargers in 1,826 stations worldwide; these include 908 stations in the U.S., 98 in Canada, 16 in Mexico, 520 in Europe, and 398 in the Asia/Pacific region.

More and more DC fast chargers are being built across the United States. Electrify America expects to install or have under development approximately 800 total charging station with about 3,500 chargers by December 2021.

in addition to the EA network, there are many companies offering fast DC charging, chargepoint, EVGO, greenlots, in addtion to many other networks.
 
and this comment is based on what?
The comments in this thread from Porsche owners about the 350kW chargers, primarily. I don't really have anything else to go off of. It sounds like kind of a PITA atm.

It's very likely a temporary situation! But going to need to be a LOT of charging stations with all these GM products coming to market in the next couple years. It'll be interesting to see how the balance of supply and demand plays out. Would be nice to get ahead on the supply.

I'm familiar with the CCS infrastructure & providers, since I have a Spark EV as well. Just not the 350kW infrastructure. It's generally a royal pain in the rear and you have to be a member of tons of networks and it's annoying and there are initiatives to fix this so you can just have one card - but AFAIK we're not there yet.
 
The comments in this thread from Porsche owners about the 350kW chargers, primarily. I don't really have anything else to go off of. It sounds like kind of a PITA atm.

It's very likely a temporary situation! But going to need to be a LOT of charging stations with all these GM products coming to market in the next couple years. It'll be interesting to see how the balance of supply and demand plays out. Would be nice to get ahead on the supply.

I'm familiar with the CCS infrastructure & providers, since I have a Spark EV as well. Just not the 350kW infrastructure.
GM is partnered up with EVGO not EA.

if you pulled up the EA map of chargers you'd have a better handle of how many and the locations of the 350kw units instead of making way too many ill informed assumptions.
have a wonderful day and enjoy whatever car that you buy
 
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you are making way too many ill informed assumptions. have a wonderday and enjoy whatever car that you buy
Ok, you too. I already have a Model 3 and I'm sticking with it, since I have free Supercharging, lol.

As I have said repeatedly, it seems to me that the Porsche is an awesome car, and quite usable for road trips. However, the primary concern I have when road-tripping in the Tesla is the Supercharger network capacity and reliability. It's always the primary concern. I have had, in general, good luck with it, but it's always a concern since it is not 100% reliable and you have to make sure stations are up, and that you're never going to be waiting for any significant length of time (waiting is a complete disaster), so you have to strategize about which stations to hit, to avoid the high-use stations. (For example, at busy times, you should always hit Klamath Falls (not on I-5) rather than Grants Pass when traveling on I-5, which one would not normally think to do.)

The same concerns clearly apply to the Porsche. That's all I'm saying. And my guess, based on what people have said in this thread, is that at the current time, the problem is worse for the CCS 350kW network than it is for the Supercharger network.
 
taycans get 3 years of FREE 30 minute charging at EA stations. the point is moot
It wasn't really a point I was making.

Anyone here got links to multiple-stop long road trips for the Taycan they've seen posted? I looked at the couple of links above but those were short trips. I'd be interested to see how well the networks are working (I've seen news articles with descriptions - talking more about an owner description).
 
how many and the locations of the 350kw units

I think I've not mentioned that at all as an issue. Have I? I was wondering about how well the network worked.

if you pulled up the EA map of chargers

Since you brought up the location of chargers (which is not what I was discussing):

I've certainly done this in the past. For example, I don't recommend a trip to Theodore Roosevelt National Park in a Taycan at the current time. ;) In fact I'd be careful venturing into eastern Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, and most of Wyoming!

This is kind of a silly cherry-picking argument I'm making here, but it illustrates my point about the situation at the current time. Of course it is going to change fairly soon - this is presumably the last of the EA network that will be built out (no "coming soon", yet, though), and the faster it improves, the better.

Anyway, enough about locations, which wasn't really my concern since the networks are built out in most places now:

I was just looking for comments about real-world experiences with the 350kW charging (I guess it is 270kW, but as discussed that isn't the key metric; the taper matters a lot), and there are a couple in the thread above, including from you - thank you. How easy? How reliable? How crowded? Etc.
 
Anyway, enough ranting, back to the point: The current Taycan never achieves 350 kW in the real word because it is limited, per spec, to a peak 270 kW for the 2020 and 2021 model years. The 2021 model year introduces a "feature" allowing owners to further reduce the charge rate to 200 kW to protect the battery. I suspect Porsche's internal accelerated life testing revealed some unpleasant statistics for their warranty reserve.

I'm sure someone is going to accuse me of lying about the 270 kW and 200 kW charging rates. So here it is, straight from the horse's mouth: Continuous updates for Porsche’s first electric sports car

If it were that much of a problem, they wouldn't have made it user selectable. They would have just limited it. Here's the actual text of how Porsche puts it:

Battery preservation while charging is another function that is new for the 2021 model year. It can regulate the charging capacity at suitable charging points (e.g. DC fast charging stations) to around 200 kW, when customers are planning to make a longer stop. This extends the battery’s service life and reduces the overall power loss while charging. Drivers can select this function using the central display. Of course, if customers choose not to use this option, a charging capacity of up to 270 kW remains available at 800-volt high-power charging stations.

"For when customers are planning on making a longer stop" to me means, "I want to stop to eat, which takes 30-45 minutes. My car might be charged by then, and I'd rather slow the charging to extend battery life if I'm not in a hurry".
 
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I think I've not mentioned that at all as an issue. Have I? I was wondering about how well the network worked.



Since you brought up the location of chargers (which is not what I was discussing):

I've certainly done this in the past. For example, I don't recommend a trip to Theodore Roosevelt National Park in a Taycan at the current time. ;) In fact I'd be careful venturing into eastern Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, and most of Wyoming!
the same advice should be heeded driving any EV, once you get west of minnesota the coverage on the I-90/94 corridor is limited. that area is just one part of the US with very limited fast DC charging.
 
It wasn't really a point I was making.

Anyone here got links to multiple-stop long road trips for the Taycan they've seen posted? I looked at the couple of links above but those were short trips. I'd be interested to see how well the networks are working (I've seen news articles with descriptions - talking more about an owner description).

Grab a cup of coffee!

 
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the same advice should be heeded driving any EV, once you get west of minnesota the coverage on the I-90/94 corridor is limited. that area is just one part of the US with very limited fast DC charging.
Again, as I said, this is a bit silly, but for full disclosure...you won't be going far from the interstates in a Tesla. But at least you can be on the interstate.
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Just to be 100% clear, the EPA range includes that buffer. There is no way around that.

Similarly, the Porsche is driven until it stops moving (I do not know what sort of buffer they have below 0% on the Porsche - but that buffer would also be included in EPA miles - which likely makes the Porsche results even more impressive - depending on the size of any buffer there).
Right they drive until there's nothing left. I think because of the adjustment factor most other manufacturers take (range * .7) it becomes very easy to hit the rated range as an owner, without even hitting 0%.

I'm not completely negative on Tesla, or positive on the other brands (my Model 3 was, all said and done, a much more finished product than my e-tron), but range IMO is an area that Tesla games even if it's completely legal. They would still have the highest range numbers if they took the approach of other manufacturers, which is a number that you can reasonably and easily expect on the highway.
 
Teslas also WAY under-deliver on range. You shouldn't have to drive 25 miles past 0% to hit the promised range. If it were extra buffer that they didn't promise, then that would be over-delivering.
This is such a bizarre argument.

First, there is no way for your car to know for certain the exact number of miles remaining. You, the driver, might suddenly decide to take a left turn up a hill. The car has no way to predict that. Suddenly your kWh/mile skyrocket. Your remaining miles will plummet. And you will run out of juice sooner the car predicted. Is that really what you want? Maybe I'm just cut from different cloth, but I'd prefer the car to be conservative when I'm close to 0.

Second, the range estimator shows 0 miles before the SOC indicator shows 0% and you can choose to show SOC instead of miles. If it bothers you to see 0 miles on the dashboard, just switch to SOC. You cannot drive a Tesla below 0%, so nobody has ever driven a Tesla 25 miles past 0%. By my estimate, you should usually have about 5-10% battery when the range indicator shows 0 miles.

Realpolitik: These arguments are fairly transparent, and I completely understand why this is upsetting for some. Tesla's on-dash range estimator is inconvenient for those trying to argue that Tesla massively under-delivers on range, but the estimator has zero impact on how far the car actually goes. You need to get past the fact that it is just an imperfect estimate displayed on the dashboard. Nothing more. Nothing less. Tesla could multiply the number on the dash by 10, or add 25 or anything else. It still wouldn't change how far you can actually drive.
 
You cannot drive a Tesla below 0%, so nobody has ever driven a Tesla 25 miles past 0%

This is not true. And it's been known for a very long time. However, it is not recommended to drive past 0% under any circumstances. The EPA test, however, drives many miles on the dyno, past 0. This is done for every EV; they are driven until they shut down on the dyno.

When you hit 0% on the battery icon, you will show 0 rated miles. Perhaps that is not what you were saying above. As far as the range estimator showing 0 miles before the SoC indicator, I would expect them to go to 0 at the same time - if you have a picture showing otherwise that would be interesting.

It's true that you have about 4.5% of your battery left when you hit 0%. For a Model 3. It's a different % for Model S & X.

 
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Grab a cup of coffee!


Thanks. Looks like for freeway travel 380-390Wh/mi is probably more realistic for his particular trim (it's a Turbo so not sure which tires he has, etc.).

So that would be a range of 220 miles between charges (he seemed to be averaging about 100-150 miles between charges as I would expect). In this particular trim/wheel/tire choice.

(This was one of his long days in decent flat, warm country)