Porsche Taycan Vs Tesla Model S: Review, Road Test, Race, Charging

[wws]

In a different form of competition, on screen, abetterrouteplanner now has a Taycan setting for road trip time estimates. I compared a bunch of EVs for a Redondo Beach Pier to New York City 'cannonball' run. The time estimates for mostly default settings:

Model 3 LR RWD Aero (like mine): 6:11 charging, 43:09 driving, 2812 miles, 49:20 total time
Model S LR Raven: 7:24 charging, 43:08 driving, 2815 miles, 50:32 total time
Taycan Turbo w/HPC: 6:50 charging, 45:54 driving, 2905 miles, 52:44 total

The 90 mile mileage difference is due to different routing. ABRP routes Teslas on I-40/I-44 ("Route 66") across the Southwest, whereas Taycan must drive up to Utah, take I-70 across Colorado, and then I-80. When EA or some other charging outfit someday installs more CCS charging - specifically between Barstow and Flagstaff, and between Albuquerque and Amarillo, the Taycan will be able to use the shorter path.

So these times are fairly close. Taycans worse efficiency over Model S is largely made up for by the faster charging - presumably at the EA 350 kW chargers. (Almost all the CCS charging sites ABRP chose were EA sites.) Model 3 still rocks over the other two. And as V3 Supercharging gets deployed along the route the Tesla times will get faster as well.

Most other non-Tesla EVs I tried had estimated times in the high 50 and low 60 hour range. A few are worse. Combination of the longer path through Utah/Colorado/Midwest, lower range, and much slower DC FC.

One other surprise: ABRP can now do Aptera estimates. Due to its much higher efficiency, an Aptera with 100 kWh battery pack has the best estimated times of all: 4:46 charging, 41:36 driving, 2821 miles, 46:22 total. It'll be interesting to see if they can actually produce them this time around.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yes good point. I think that's a classic instance of cherry-picking a test that gives you the outcome that you and / or your fans and paying customers want. The notion that a half mile race is any kind of real world reflection on usable performance is ridiculous. It's not even really related to much of Race Track Performance because it's rare to see a track with that long a straight away

Except for Nurburgring which we all know is the only metric by which street cars should be judged.

Is there a documented example of the Taycan that was confirmed to be measured without the 1 foot rollout from the 1/4 mile time? Is that what TopGear normally does?

Their 1/4 mile time for the P3D was 11.9s @112.6. It does not appear that they measure using 1 foot rollout.
Top Gear Pits BMW M3 Against Tesla Model 3 Performance

Is there a documented example that was measured without subtracting rollout from the 1/4 mile time?

The Dragy 0-60 now includes the time with rollout and without so it seems like you can just add that to the 1/4 mile. I'm actually a little bit skeptical about the number though since I've seen two screenshots and it showed 0.21s for both the P100DL and the P3D.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm actually a little bit skeptical about the number though since I've seen two screenshots and it showed 0.21s for both the P100DL and the P3D.

Yeah the numbers I have seen for the 1-foot rollout time from Dragy look a little low (they tend to be around 0.2s for the P3D which is too low). You can also look at the velocity vs. time data from Dragy. Seems like it misses the first 0.05 seconds or so of movement. Maybe as much as 0.1s.

 

[bhzmark]

It does not appear that they measure using 1 foot rollout

Are you basing that only on their slow time or some other basis? A slow time from TG is more likely attributable to TG incompetence than a consistent no rollout setting on their vbox. I seriously doubt they even know how to work it.

Dragy and vbox (default settings) are both very close to actual time slips from drag strips which suggests that they predict average mid staging (not deep and not shallow) which would mean a less than full foot rollout.

We simply have to see apples to apples dragy,vbox or timeslips. Or maybe a magazine that has a consistent testing protocol like MT or CD or RT. TG is not credible.

 

[bhzmark]

We need a Taycan entry @fiksegts Porsche 1/4 Mile Drag Racing Timeslips - DragTimes.com

 

[Daniel in SD]

Are you basing that only on their slow time or some other basis? A slow time from TG is more likely attributable to TG incompetence than a consistent no rollout setting on their vbox. I seriously doubt they even know how to work it.

Dragy and vbox (default settings) are both very close to actual time slips from drag strips which suggests that they predict average mid staging (not deep and not shallow) which would mean a less than full foot rollout.

We simply have to see apples to apples dragy,vbox or timeslips. Or maybe a magazine that has a consistent testing protocol like MT or CD or RT. TG is not credible.

I'm basing it on their slower than average times, average trap speeds, and the fact that they use a Vbox. My Vbox does not have the option to use different 1 foot settings for 0-60 and 1/4 mile. They would have to switch settings and do two different runs (or post process the data).

 

[bhzmark]

I'm basing it on their slower than average times, average trap speeds, and the fact that they use a Vbox. My Vbox does not have the option to use different 1 foot settings for 0-60 and 1/4 mile. They would have to switch settings and do two different runs (or post process the data).

What factor did you use for Top Gear incompetence?

 

[Daniel in SD]

What factor did you use for Top Gear incompetence?

0.2s-0.3s

 

[dfwatt]

0.2s-0.3s

I think you're being far too kind

 

[Eno Deb]

Is there a documented example of the Taycan that was confirmed to be measured without the 1 foot rollout from the 1/4 mile time? Is that what TopGear normally does?

Yes, nobody in Europe uses rollout outside of a drag strip, and it's the only thing that's consistent with the numbers we are seeing. Again, note that e.g. @Racerx22b's numbers are perfectly consistent with Topgear's except that their 1/4 mile is about 0.3s slower. We also know that they used a Vbox as shown in the video, which has a global rollout setting that affects both 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Dragy, which is what Racerx and many others use, always subtracts an artificial rollout time from distance-based timings but can show 0-60 without using rollout. And of course rollout is rolled into the times people measure on a drag strip due to the time the wheel takes to clear the staging beam. So, any 1/4 mile times obtained using Dragy or taken from a drag race slip are inflated compared to a clean measurement from a standstill using GPS or acclerometer. That's why I asked if anyone had seen any 1/4 times without rollout.

Let's compare to other Top Gear episodes where they test multiple cars with known 1/4 mile times. For instance recently they tested the Model 3 vs AMG C63 vs BMW M3 vs Guila. What were the Top Gear 1/4 miles times for those cars?

Oh, oops somehow, despite Top Gear usually testing cars in the 1/4 mile, in this comparo they didn't use the 1/4 test and instead did 1/2 mile test!

I wonder why they would decide to use a 1/2 mile test instead of the more common 1/4 mile test when they compare the Tesla Model 3 to the other cars? Why would they do that?

Uhm, he explicitly explains in the video why they did that. Perhaps you should just listen before immediately starting to spin conspiracy theories? Then you might also have heard where he said that "in the real world, even the fastest saloon wouldn't see which way the Tesla went". Some statement for someone who was allegedly bribed by "ICE legacy makers".

 

[bhzmark]

Yes

Please provide links to any other examples of 1/4 mile times without (or with, I don’t care) rollout for Taycan.

 

[dfwatt]

Yes, nobody in Europe uses rollout outside of a drag strip, and it's the only thing that's consistent with the numbers we are seeing. Again, note that e.g. @Racerx22b's numbers are perfectly consistent with Topgear's except that their 1/4 mile is about 0.3s slower.
Uhm, he explicitly explains in the video why they did that. Perhaps you should just listen before immediately starting to spin conspiracy theories? Then you might also have heard where he said that "in the real world, even the fastest saloon wouldn't see which way the Tesla went". Some statement for someone who was allegedly bribed by "ICE legacy makers".

Most of us believe it was simple incompetence perhaps mixed in with some click-baity motivation to create a more dramatic story line. In any case, those statements don't salvage a dismally conducted 'test'. You love to knock down straw men by caricaturing statements but you have not engaged with - and probably won't - the central fact of the at least 0.6 sec disparity between their putative times and the dozens of 10.5-10.6 times available on dragy vbox and drag times. See the drag times video on 'fake news'. Facts do matter. And just to be clear - rollout doesn't remotely explain that gap. Sorry, no soap.

 

[NickFie]

I'm gonna have a drag race where you have to carry 6 adults and tow a 5000lb trailer. The Model X will be world champion!

Like this...?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Please provide links to any other examples of 1/4 mile times without (or with, I don’t care) rollout for Taycan.

Well it doesn't even go on sale here in the US until Spring (they better get it here before Plaid!). Hopefully they'll send some over to the US magazines before then so we can finally get to the bottom of #rolloutgate #launchmodegate.
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact the Taycan trapped 131.6mph and had a 2.61s 0-60 (without rollout , are there any faster Model S times?). I suppose that could also be #fakenews. Time will tell...

 

[bhzmark]

d had a 2.61s 0-60 (without rollout , are there any faster Model S times?

Dragy has a 2.48 and a 2.62 (up 1% incline) — and those are the older non-Raven 2017 and 2018 P100Ds.

The only 0-60 Raven on Dragy is a test drive I did in a Raven at 2.70 but was only 88% SOC and wasn’t in full Ludicrous + with heated battery, and was literally my first and only attempt at a time trial in a Raven — and up a .76% slope on a crappy (private) road. The Raven will do better than 2.61 0-60. (All 0-60 Dragy times w/o rollout).

Need more Dragy data points all around.

 

[ICUDoc]

the fact the Taycan trapped 131.6mph and had a 2.61s 0-60

Not ignoring it- that is blisteringly fast. Raven is also blisteringly fast. If Top Gear had published times for Raven that were in the range of what we have seen elsewhere, everyone would have talked about the Taycan in more glowing terms. Undoubtedly two gears help dramatically. But boy, that second gear Downunder costs about 220 000 dollars!!

 

[bhzmark]

For TopGear staff and other people unfamiliar with Ludicrous, here is a video describing how to get the full ludicrous.

"at 100 percent battery with Ludicrous+, but without Warp Mode, he could do low 10.6s on the quarter-mile. At 96 to 98 percent battery power with Ludicrous+ and Warp Mode, he could hit 10.5s, about a tenth-second difference, on the quarter-mile. Warp Mode also affects 0-60 performance, so there is a slight difference with it on"
Tesla's Three Levels of Ludicrous Mode Explained and Demonstrated

 

[Racerx22b]

For TopGear staff and other people unfamiliar with Ludicrous, here is a video describing how to get the full ludicrous, alas still short of plaid.

"at 100 percent battery with Ludicrous+, but without Warp Mode, he could do low 10.6s on the quarter-mile. At 96 to 98 percent battery power with Ludicrous+ and Warp Mode, he could hit 10.5s, about a tenth-second difference, on the quarter-mile. Warp Mode also affects 0-60 performance, so there is a slight difference with it on"
Tesla's Three Levels of Ludicrous Mode Explained and Demonstrated

Doing my test runs this morning now that I have the power bump software update. Report back later today.

 

[bhzmark]

Doing my test runs this morning now that I have the power bump software update. Report back later today.

Post on dragy? My lame half hearted 0-60 mile raven time needs to be replaced with a proper run.

 

[alexzz]

Well it doesn't even go on sale here in the US until Spring (they better get it here before Plaid!). Hopefully they'll send some over to the US magazines before then so we can finally get to the bottom of #rolloutgate #launchmodegate.
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact the Taycan trapped 131.6mph and had a 2.61s 0-60 (without rollout , are there any faster Model S times?). .

Yes, Motortrend did 2.53 seconds without rollout.