Potential New EV Tax Credit for 2021

[nwdiver]

You don't seen to understand, I agree with the majority of what you are saying and yes, the gov subsidized a lot of things, but it is time to stop for the sake of our country and kids. But we have different views on how to get there, you want the gov to give away free money and I want creative minds in the private sector to get there. Here is an example, for years Nasa sent rockets and the shuttle into space and the booster rockets were wasted by having them falling into the ocean after each use. They didn't have the desire to figure out how to not waste them because they had unlimited funds from the gov. and they weren't able to keep the best minds due to the fact that places like SpaceX paid them more. Then Musk came along and in a very few years figured out how to reuse them. Also Billionaire Bill Gates' advanced nuclear reactor company TerraPower LLC and PacifiCorp have selected Wyoming to launch the first Natrium reactor power project on the site of a retiring coal plant and he is doing this without gov money. It is folks like Musk who has been very successful with Tesla, SpaceX, and his boring company, and folks like Gates who will figure out how to solve climate change, not the gov. It has been enjoyable and interesting talking with you and I appreciate your views and also you listing to mine. It is refreshing to discuss something with someone with different views without them getting upset. I wish more folks could do this in our world today. I think we understand each other and time to put this to rest and get back to the Tesla topic. By the way, which Tesla do you drive? We have a 2016 Model X P90DL. Later

You're ignoring reality.

• Money is fake but physics is real. If you want to do something for our country and kids focus more on real consequences from climate change and less on fake money. We have infinitely more control over the consequence of $1,000T of government debt than the consequences of CO2 at 500ppm.
• Yeah.... TerraPower is absolutely taking government money... should they not?
• The only reason Tesla has a chance to make progress with AGW is solar subsidies drove the cost curve from $100/w to $0.3/w.

My point is that people need to stop allowing ideology to cloud their judgment and form conclusions. In the 'Age of Stupid' we need public funds to tip the scales away from an apocalyptic future.

Without government investment we would have no nuclear, ~no solar and ~no wind. Seems more than a little absurd we should stop doing the thing that got us this far. It's like driving halfway from LA to NY then getting out in KS to walk because you don't think cars work......

Greatest Achievements of Public Policy​

 

[Mark J]

Why do you have to yell to get your point across? I guess I was wrong. Not responding anymore. Have a good day.

 

[nwdiver]

Why do you have to yell to get your point across? I guess I was wrong. Not responding anymore. Have a good day.

???? How was that 'yelling'? Just stating facts.... do you not like bullet points or is it the clarity that bothers you?

 

[Fairchild]

Its free to anyone that wants it but it is being paid by my, their, your taxes so...was it really "free"?

And the Pharmaceutical companies profits also prove "it wasn't FREE!"

Oh and just to be clear...I got both shots so not a "anti-vax" person.

And driving on the Interstate Highway isn't free either and breathing air isn't free either (unless you are a corporation who pays no taxes).

At some point, we subsidize EVERYTHING. So, What's your point?

Managing climate change is a currently a dire priority which desperately needs to be subsidized
Subsidies appear to an effective tool at facilitating the change and helping people to break from their oil addiction.

Accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy.

 

[Mark J]

When

???? How was that 'yelling'? Just stating facts.... do you not like bullet points or is it the clarity that bothers you?

I complemented you and enjoyed our conversation until now. BTY, in bold and red like this is considered yelling

Greatest Achievements of Public Policy​

And again I agreed with you regarding the problem and that something needs to get done, but apparently you didn't listen, but I don't happen to agree with you on how to get there. When the gov is done taking all the money from folks and we can't pay back the trillions we owe and the country goes bankrupt, then climate change will be the last thing folks will worry about. And don't think it can't happen. We have to be smart about how we go about this or we all will lose and Florida will be under water. Typical, when things get difficult or someone doesn't agree, you demine and insult rather than staying civil. IE: (do you not like bullet points or is it the clarity that bothers you)

 

[nwdiver]

When

I complemented you and enjoyed our conversation until now. BTY, in bold and red like this is considered yelling

​

Well.... take it up with the people that designed the forum... 'cause that's just what it looks like when you copy-paste a link to another thread.

With regards to the 'insult' I'm just pointing out that your 'opinions' are not based on facts which disqualifies them as 'opinions'. You can't have a difference of opinion if you start with a difference of fact. You believe nuclear no longer needs government money because 'Look! TerraPower can do it' Except.... no... TerraPower is NOT doing it... they're also taking government money.

If you're worried about government debt there's an easy answer. The government needs to take in more money. Lots of ways to do it... the only problem is that half the people making those decisions joined a cult and took a blood oath to never increase taxes. I don't like the idea of taxing unrealized gains but surely you must acklowedge that Jeff Bezos having a lower tax rate than a $7/hr waitress is absurd. One suggestions I've read is to tax the loans they use to dodge taxed. If you take a $100M asset-backed loan that loan should be taxed as income.

And the US doesn't have go bankrupt. When you can print your own money you can choose between printing or bankruptcy. Which can also cause other problems... all of which have solutions... all of which pale in comparison to the problems we'll face when CO2 is over 500ppm. Typical, when things get difficult or someone points out that you're wrong, you demine and accuse the other of insults instead of absorbing that new information and using it to modify your point of view.

Trillion-dollar coin​

^ Not 'yelling'... it's a hyper-link. Click it to learn thing about monetary policy ^

 

[Mark J]

BTY where in the world does a waitress make $7.00 per hour? Mexico? My waitress sister makes $15.00 and does not pay taxes, they get everything back on their return because I helped her with last years taxes. Fact! I agree the rich should not get away with paying the what they pay, but the top 1 percent of earners in America pay 40.1 percent of federal taxes; the bottom 90 percent pay 28.6 percent. Fact! Also you could take every penny from the rich and it would pay less than 1% of the debt, fact. Everyone, I mean everyone except those under the poverty rate should pay 10% tax and the gov would bring in more money then ever and you can't get any fairer than that. Fact! Companies should not have all the loop holes not get out of paying either. Yes the country can go bankrupt. The more money you print and put into the economy, the higher inflation goes and the less each dollar is worth which is the most unfair tax on the poor. Fact! Remember the Carter days and are you old enough to remember Brazil and the mess they were in. They did the exact same thing and their solution was to keep printing money until it took a wheel barrow of cash to buy a loaf of bread. I just happened to be there and the country did almost go bankrupt but sense then they figured things out and now have a pretty strong economy. The climate change is a huge problem and it is because of folks like you who won't compromise on anything is why nothing gets done. I agree there can be money put into the projects that produce results, but the gov just hands out free money without any follow-up to make sure it is spent wisely. Fact

 

[nwdiver]

The climate change is a huge problem and it is because of folks like you who won't compromise on anything is why nothing gets done. I agree there can be money put into the projects that produce results, but the gov just hands out free money without any follow-up to make sure it is spent wisely. Fact

Whose not compromising? You're the only 'no' here. I say 'yes' to funding nuclear to see if it works. It failed economically but that's ok... IMO we had to try. 'Yes' to solar, to wind, to EVs, to batteries. Yes.

So to be clear you're ok with EV subsidies as long as we check to make sure someone is actually buying an EV?

 

[Mark J]

How in the world did you get this from what I said? "So to be clear you're ok with EV subsidies as long as we check to make sure someone is actually buying an EV?" NO The gov could invest in PROJECTS to help with climate change as long as there is accountability that the money is spent wisely which the gov has proven over and again this is not the case. What's wrong with a little accountability? Not give away money to push a product. If the product is what the public wants. it will sell. Just like the Teslas, there is no free money to buy a tesla but they can't keep up with demand. I did NOT buy my tesla with the thought of getting free money from the gov., I bought it last July because I felt it was the right thing to do for the environment. What about you, did you have to be enticed with gov money to buy your Tesla? Not trying to be a jerk here and I do appreciate your passion, but it is either your way or the highway. I think we have beaten this dead horse enough. Again I really do appreciate your opinion. Good luck in your go fund me charging station effort.

 

[nwdiver]

How in the world did you get this from what I said? "So to be clear you're ok with EV subsidies as long as we check to make sure someone is actually buying an EV?" NO The gov could invest in PROJECTS to help with climate change as long as there is accountability that the money is spent wisely which the gov has proven over and again this is not the case. What's wrong with a little accountability? Not give away money to push a product. If the product is what the public wants. it will sell. Just like the Teslas, there is no free money to buy a tesla but they can't keep up with demand. I did NOT buy my tesla with the thought of getting free money from the gov., I bought it last July because I felt it was the right thing to do for the environment. What about you, did you have to be enticed with gov money to buy your Tesla? Not trying to be a jerk here and I do appreciate your passion, but it is either your way or the highway. I think we have beaten this dead horse enough. Again I really do appreciate your opinion. Good luck in your go fund me charging station effort.

We don't need more projects. We need deployment. Rapid, rapid deployment. Why is spending money on a project any different than spending money on deployment?

 

[Mark J]

What good does it do to push all the EV's when there is not enough power to charge them, IE California and where the majority of the power in this country is generated using hydrocarbons. Get the power situation then push the EV's. Also everyone who is reading this. please spread the word about nwdrivers go fund me push asking for donations for the charging station and donate, especially if you live in his area. This may be a small project but it is attitudes like his where he is actually trying to do something about it that will make a difference.

 

[nwdiver]

What good does it do to push all the EV's when there is not enough power to charge them, IE California and where the majority of the power in this country is generated using hydrocarbons. Get the power situation then push the EV's. Also everyone who is reading this. please spread the word about nwdrivers go fund me push asking for donations for the charging station and donate, especially if you live in his area. This may be a small project but it is attitudes like his where he is actually trying to do something about it that will make a difference.

EVs are actually part of the solution to renewables. They can absorb curtailment from wind and solar allowing more renewables to be integrated into the grid. So to answer your question... a lot of good. The biggest problem right now in most areas isn't a lack of power but too much at the wrong time, EVs can help.

But going back to my question. Why is subsidizing development ok but not deployment? What good is developing a product if the cost is initially too high to reach sufficient economies of scale?

 

[advocate8]

Private sector isn’t going to solve this. It won’t go where it’s not pretty certain it can make money. Yes, there are exceptions to this. But random exceptions aren’t a solution.

 

[Fairchild]

EV Credit update.

EV tax credits: House changes Biden's bill to put cash back in EV buyers' pockets

EV tax credits: Manchin a no on Build Back Better bill, putting $12,500 incentive in doubt

The House passed Biden's Build Back Better bill in November, but it remains untouched in the Senate.

flip.it

 

[voxel]

Private sector isn’t going to solve this. It won’t go where it’s not pretty certain it can make money. Yes, there are exceptions to this. But random exceptions aren’t a solution.

On the flipside, governments just distort perfectly working markets.

I'm 100% behind the EV charging funding in the infrastructure bill ($7.5B is low though). These EV tax credits could easily cost $100B over 10 years... for cars that do not have a demand issue where the typical owner (Tesla) has an average salary of $128K and a EV cost north of $50K.

Spend the money on more EV charging for all and incentives to automakers to build sub $35K EVs and incentives to build battery factories in the US. The tax credit as written is just a middle-class handout.

 

[Fairchild]

On the flipside, governments just distort perfectly working markets.

I'm 100% behind the EV charging funding in the infrastructure bill ($7.5B is low though). These EV tax credits could easily cost $100B over 10 years... for cars that do not have a demand issue where the typical owner (Tesla) has an average salary of $128K and a EV cost north of $50K.

Spend the money on more EV charging for all and incentives to automakers to build sub $35K EVs and incentives to build battery factories in the US. The tax credit as written is just a middle-class handout.

President Biden’s American Jobs Plan includes a transformational $15 billion investment to fund this vision and build a national network of 500,000 charging stations. 500,000 charging stations should do it, especially considering MOST people charge at home. Got my home charger for a $150 visit from the electrician (not a big deal).

Bravo for a middle-class handout designed to produce sustainable energy. Finally the middle class which has been squeezed for a long time is getting a break. Hallelujah! It's time for their fair share. Far better than the 2017 $1.9 trillion tax giveaway to the corporations and the ultra-wealthy . The $25K Tesla will be coming out of China soon, because Tesla can do it without government incentives.

 

[bmiddaugh]

The government has unlimited money. It always has. Always will. We are monetarily sovereign. Government "subsidies" will always favor one thing over another.
Just a fact.
To understand the key to our system of economics you must understand monetary sovereignty.
The idea that a "free market" can privately figure our way out of things completely negates the reality that most of the major free market innovations were started by government funds, right down to our ability to type on this forum.
No sane person would invest in building a national highway system, a national railway system, public water utilities and so on. The initial costs would make your ROI seem insane.
Read up on the history of corporations in this country. (The founders of our government hated them.)
More importantly read this article.
It sums up why we can do ANYTHING we want. We have the funds, we just need to allocate them according to need and science.
Monetary Sovereignty

IMHO, the reason the government and the media continues to play this whole, "the national debt is outrageous" is so that the average person, who is not monetarily sovereign doesn't begin to understand that, yes virginia, money actually is free and grows on a magic gov't money tree. It would lead to chaos and people not wanting to do anything. It's also why we are taxed, to create a need for US dollars...
Also read, The Deficit Myth.
Good stuff.
Good luck everyone!

 

[Sexy_owner]

The government has unlimited money. It always has. Always will. We are monetarily sovereign. Government "subsidies" will always favor one thing over another.
Just a fact.
To understand the key to our system of economics you must understand monetary sovereignty.
The idea that a "free market" can privately figure our way out of things completely negates the reality that most of the major free market innovations were started by government funds, right down to our ability to type on this forum.
No sane person would invest in building a national highway system, a national railway system, public water utilities and so on. The initial costs would make your ROI seem insane.
Read up on the history of corporations in this country. (The founders of our government hated them.)
More importantly read this article.
It sums up why we can do ANYTHING we want. We have the funds, we just need to allocate them according to need and science.
Monetary Sovereignty

IMHO, the reason the government and the media continues to play this whole, "the national debt is outrageous" is so that the average person, who is not monetarily sovereign doesn't begin to understand that, yes virginia, money actually is free and grows on a magic gov't money tree. It would lead to chaos and people not wanting to do anything. It's also why we are taxed, to create a need for US dollars...
Also read, The Deficit Myth.
Good stuff.
Good luck everyone!

Have you heard of something called Inflation? Do you know what happened to Venezuela/Brazil? You seemed to have many references and quotes, but I don't see anything about inflation and its effects on the economy...

 

[voxel]

The government has unlimited money. It always has. Always will. We are monetarily sovereign. Government "subsidies" will always favor one thing over another.
Just a fact.
To understand the key to our system of economics you must understand monetary sovereignty.
The idea that a "free market" can privately figure our way out of things completely negates the reality that most of the major free market innovations were started by government funds, right down to our ability to type on this forum.
No sane person would invest in building a national highway system, a national railway system, public water utilities and so on. The initial costs would make your ROI seem insane.
Read up on the history of corporations in this country. (The founders of our government hated them.)
More importantly read this article.
It sums up why we can do ANYTHING we want. We have the funds, we just need to allocate them according to need and science.
Monetary Sovereignty

IMHO, the reason the government and the media continues to play this whole, "the national debt is outrageous" is so that the average person, who is not monetarily sovereign doesn't begin to understand that, yes virginia, money actually is free and grows on a magic gov't money tree. It would lead to chaos and people not wanting to do anything. It's also why we are taxed, to create a need for US dollars...
Also read, The Deficit Myth.
Good stuff.
Good luck everyone!

"money actually is free and grows on a magic gov't money tree" - lol

You print debt/money to fellow Americans... that might be true. It's not true when foreigners own your debt... you are selling out your country piece by piece: land, corporations, resources. NMT is just complete BS. Money is a resource like any other good. Print enough of it and it devalues. You can't print yourself out of debt when foreigners control your debt.

 

[voxel]

President Biden’s American Jobs Plan includes a transformational $15 billion investment to fund this vision and build a national network of 500,000 charging stations. 500,000 charging stations should do it, especially considering MOST people charge at home. Got my home charger for a $150 visit from the electrician (not a big deal).

Bravo for a middle-class handout designed to produce sustainable energy. Finally the middle class which has been squeezed for a long time is getting a break. Hallelujah! It's time for their fair share. Far better than the 2017 $1.9 trillion tax giveaway to the corporations and the ultra-wealthy . The $25K Tesla will be coming out of China soon, because Tesla can do it without government incentives.

I hated the corporate tax cut because it was so obvious it was going to be used to buyback stock as corporations had no incentive to increase US manufacturing or to invest in new jobs/research here.

Regardless, bad policies are bad policies. This EV credit is throwing gasoline onto the EV shortage fire. We need a solar/wind/thermal/nuclear power plan. We need battery factories in the US. We need cheaper EVs. We need charging infrastructure at workplaces and apartments. This whole $25K Tesla thing won't materialize in the US because those cars will go to Europe and there will probably be tariffs.