They assume you aren't keeping it and don't put the core charge on until you ask to keep the old parts. (At least that is how I have seen it.)
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Power Conversion System (PCS) failure
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Yanquetino
Member
Talked to the Service Manager at Las Vegas again this morning. We are still at an impasse. He refuses to budge, even though others have had their PSCs replaced under the battery warranty, and even the the PSC is included when the replace the entire battery. Oddly, he refused to give me his name, nor the full name of who is above him in the Tesla hierarchy. I requested that he send me in writing his reasons for not replacing my PSC as part of the battery unit under warranty. I am now going to drive back to the service center to pick up my Model 3, and then file a complaint with arbitration as specified in my original purchase order agreement. Thanks to all who provided feedback in this thread.
It is sad that you have to do this. (It is sort of extortion, as the cost of arbitration for them is more than the cost of them replacing your PCS. Doubly so if you go to arbitration and win. But they may not want to set a precedent of just giving in.)
In any case, if they want portions of the HV battery pack excluded from the warranty they need to update the warranty, for future vehicle sales, to exclude those parts. (We know they cover more than just the cells, as they cover the contactors, fuse, cooling system, etc. that is inside the Model S packs.)
100% agree. This is exactly what I told the regional service manager that I worked my way up to. They should actually define what's included in the Battery warranty beyond the 3 words they use right now.
I do think asking for the replaced part back helped. They did not charge me a core charge but did also end up doing the service goodwill. My sense was that if there really is a defective part issue (perhaps an extension to the current TSB just months away) they wouldn't want these parts flying out in the wild due to broader legal evidence risk.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Is physical location of a vehicle component really a reasonable measure to determine whether or not something is covered by the warranty?
I’m all in favor of them making things more clear, but I also find this general line of reasoning lacking and disingenuous.
Tesla could put the subwoofer inside the battery sheet metal if they really wanted. I don’t think that would make it covered by the battery warranty.
Nobody disputes that the onboard charger and DC-DC converter on the S/X is NOT covered by the battery warranty. What reasonable defense exists for them suddenly being covered because they were relocated to underneath an access panel within the HV battery enclosure for packaging efficiency instead of under the rear seats and in the front wheel well?
For me it's 2 simple things:
1) When they replace a "battery", they replace the battery pack, which includes the PCU (for model 3, this is different for the original S/X)
2) Looking at their own Technical Service Bulletins they classify the PCU problem under "Section 16 - HV Battery System" note this is specifically different for TSBs for charging related items which are listed under "44 - High Voltage System". So even in their own system definitions they specifically call out the PCU as part of the "HV Battery System".
That said, I think Tesla could make their service departments lives easier if they just better defined "Battery" in their warranty. Right now it's not clear + there is evidence from several folks in the forums who had this exact PCU unit replaced by a SC and where the invoice specifically calls out that it's replaced under "HV Battery Warranty" not "Goodwill" or "General Warranty". Even their own service departments aren't being consistent about the warranty definition.
The point is if you buy a battery you get everything inside the pack. The warranty for buying a pack just says 4 year 50k miles. Would you not think that warranty applies to the entire pack and everything contained inside? Therefore the PCS, that is inside the battery pack, is part of the battery and should be covered under the warranty for that part.
I don't care if there is a sub-woofer in there, or an expresso machine. Everything inside the pack should be covered unless it is specifically excluded.
It would be an entirely different story if when you bought a battery pack it came without the PCS, or sub-woofer/expresso machine, and you had to install your own parts in the battery. I could at least defend Tesla's stance on the warranty there a little bit. But that isn't the case.
So by your logic what should be covered? Just the cells themselves? What about the contactors? Fuse? Cooling pipes? Bus bar? BMS? Cabling? etc...
at this line, as it's almost word-for-word what I had said to the regional service manager. I think I even threw in: contacts, tabs, anodes, cathodes, etc.
Yanquetino
Member
To follow up: I filed my complaint with Tesla about the problem. As the "Agreement to Arbitrate" states in my original Purchase Agreement, they need to resolve the dispute "within 60 days." If not… it will go to arbitration, and we'll see what happens there. If any of you are interested, I posted a writeup of my position at this link.
Since the majority of long range owners probably never charge beyond 32A, a problem with one of the three 16A PCS charging segments is not realized until another segment fails or the owner attempts a charging session over 32A. With the telemetry the Tesla vehicles have, it's a good bet Tesla knows when any one of the three segments fails and when. They might even normally round robin the three to limit wear and tear? Would make sense if they did. Someone on this forum mentioned a Tesla Engineer friend told them that he believed the PCS was under engineered to withstand frequent 48A charging (maybe the heat generated causes early failure of some component(s)). Of course, there is no way to confirm most of the above.
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Yanquetino
Member
For those who might be interested, I ran across this photo of a PCS at TeslaTap. I am no engineer by any stretch of the slide rule, but I'm guessing the "pinkish" blocks are the three 16A devices that convert AC power to DC when charging, with a combined output of 48A. If so, I suppose that if one fails, the charge drops to 32A; two fail, 16A; all three fail, zero zip zilch nada. Curiously, it looks like those units might have three fuses next to each of them, thus nine fuses total…? Maybe those fuses are what are failing…? Dunno… but it nonetheless doesn't change my assertion that the components in the High Voltage Battery Service Panel should be covered under the Battery and Drive Unit Warranty.
You are incorrect about the actual function of the "pinkish blocks". However, you're right that the whole middle of the board is 3 identical sets of charger circuitry. It can be used for 3-phase charging or can be paralleled together for 3 x 16A = 48A charging.
Yanquetino
Member
Ah… interesting! Like I said, I'm no engineer, can only make wild guesses. Thanks for the insight!
jgrgnt
Member
Interesting thread.
My Model 3 Performance has been at the service center for two weeks, waiting for a new Power Conversion System to arrive. Thankfully, I'm still under warranty. I had the same issue as others have reported: charging indicated at 0A or 1A, with spikes up to 32A (even though I had the limit set to 24A). I only AC charge at home, and never above 24A, so I never would have noticed if one of the charging block went bad.
My Model 3 Performance has been at the service center for two weeks, waiting for a new Power Conversion System to arrive. Thankfully, I'm still under warranty. I had the same issue as others have reported: charging indicated at 0A or 1A, with spikes up to 32A (even though I had the limit set to 24A). I only AC charge at home, and never above 24A, so I never would have noticed if one of the charging block went bad.
Yanquetino
Member
Ugh. Two weeks waiting! Tesla must be backed up with orders for replacement PCSs. It is becoming even clearer to me that they are faulty, prone to break down after 3, 4, 5 years of ownership. As I've asserted in my "Agreement to Arbitrate," Tesla definitely needs to cover the components in the High Voltage Battery Service Panel under its Battery and Drive Unit Warranty. Moreover, since an increasing number of these breakdowns are occurring, Tesla really needs to go back to the drawing board and reengineer the PCS with more a robust, durable design, capable of lasting well beyond that warranty.
jgrgnt
Member
Update: backordered power conversion system finally arrived, car is fixed, and I'm back on the road! It was roughly a 3-week wait.
Yanquetino
Member
Glad to hear it!
I still say that any component in the HV Battery Service Panel should be covered by the Battery and Drive Unit warranty. Tesla still doesn't agree, so… we might end up in arbitration in another month.
I shared Teslalog data to help diagnose the problem with the replacement high voltage battery and Tesla was happy to see the data and even asked for more data at different time periods and they ended up using it to diagnose the problem.
Even if Tesla pretends to ignore the data showing it to them it may still help them diagnose the problem even if they don't acknowledge your data.
Worst case they just say they don't want to look at it but at least you've informed them that you have the information and you could use it in a further claim against them.
IcyMango241
Member
I too am now experiencing this issue on my Nov'18 build Long Range. I can get up to about 8A on my Wall Connector, anything beyond that and amperage drops to 0. Just got a repair estimate of $1800 to replace the PCS. I'll find out next week if it will be covered under any kind of warranty, but based on this thread I'm not hopeful.
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