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Powerpack and Superchargers?

Discussion in 'Tesla Energy' started by jeff_adams, May 20, 2015.

  1. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    Elon has said in the past that he wanted to add solar panels to Supercharger locations, so the logical assumption is the addition of Tesla Energy Powerpack.

    Some discussion questions.

    1. Will Tesla Energy make the packs visible in order to market the products?

    2. Will some of the lightly used Superchargers produce more energy than they consume and become profit centers of energy?

    3. Can Tesla somehow design the Powerpacks in such a way that they can output higher charge rates than the utilities can provide? Sort of a "super capacitor" if you will.
     
  2. FredTMC

    FredTMC Model S VIN #4925

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    Note that some locations in Cali already have Tesla battery storage (the 0.5MWh version). These are the predecessor to the 100KWh powerpack. locations include Barstow and Hawthorne
     
  3. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    #3 Ampster, May 20, 2015
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
    I don't know about that but I thought I read somewhere that they cut the expense of some superchargers by reducing the demand charge. Some utilities charge a fee based on the highest kWh load in any 15 minute period.
     
  4. trils0n

    trils0n 2013 P85

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    Gilroy Supercharger has a battery as well.

    In the past, Tesla has said that Supercharger usage has 2 peaks, Friday afternoon, as people leave for weekend trips, and Sunday, when they return. The rest of the time, most Superchargers are essentially unused.

    This (eventually, if usage remains similar) leaves them with large amounts of grid connected storage during peak energy usage during most of the week. If they can make agreements with utilities to provide power during peak usage (where electricity can be $$/kWh if customers are hit with demand charges), to supplement/replace peak production, this could be the way the monetize the supercharger network, and still provide free electricity to Tesla drivers. It would create a more stable, less wasteful power grid. The size of a Supercharger network required to support Model 3 levels of cars would have a huge amount of storage, and would be better able to deal with peak demand than current peaker power plants.
     
  5. jordanthompson

    jordanthompson 2010 2.0 Sport, VIN 0683

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    I thought all of the SC's had huge batteries to support the load when all slots are charging.
     
  6. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    The vast majority appear to NOT have battery powerpacks at this point.
     
  7. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    At the 2014 Energy Storage Symposium JB Straubel gave a keynote address. This is the relevant section, starting at 24:15 in this You Tube video.
    Supercharger Storage Graph.jpg

    I don't think Tesla would install an energy storage system so that the draw could be larger than what the utility can provide, but they will certainly avoid a lot of demand charges by using energy storage.
     
  8. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #8 Larry Chanin, May 21, 2015
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
    Here's a Solar array Car Canopy, a Tesla Powerpack and a CHAdeMO charger. It was built with a $1,000,000 grant from Duke Energy.

    Solar Launch Event at USFSP



    Regarding question #1 the Powerpack is visible to the public through a chain link fence, but there is no Tesla branding anywhere at this installation.


    attachment.php?attachmentid=81575&d=1432174281.jpg

    Yesterday we were provided access inside the installation. The Tesla battery storage unit is the large white device on the right.

    Larry
     
  9. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    While or grey cabinet?
     
  10. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    Hi Jeff,

    I suggest that you read the thread that I referenced.

    Which do you think would handle 400 kWh? :biggrin:

    Larry
     
  11. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    That is not a Tesla Energy PowerPack. The big white thing is a 500kWh unit which is the same as the units located at SuperChargers.

    The PowerPacks are only 100kWh each and are the size of a single server cabinet. You could connect five of them together to get 500kWh, though.
     
  12. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #12 Larry Chanin, May 21, 2015
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for correcting my incorrect terminology. Do you happen to know the correct name?

    Here's an article that uses the Powerpack terminology for the utility application.

    Tesla’s New Battery Could Take Your Home Off the Grid


    Yes, I knew they were similar to those used at Superchargers. This version is only good for 400kWh. The Tesla Energy engineer told us that the firmware is designed to limit charging from 10% to 90% state of charge. This is fixed by Tesla and can not be modified by the purchaser, in this case Duke Energy.

    Larry
     
  13. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    I think they are called BABs (Big A$$ Battery) or something like that. ;)
     
  14. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    I hear that they used to call them "Superpacks". :tongue:

    I guess we're going to have to get a moderator to correct the title of this thread since a single 100 kWh Powerpack probably wouldn't be sufficient at Supercharger Stations. :wink:

    Larry
     
  15. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #15 Larry Chanin, May 21, 2015
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
    Perhaps in states that permit net metering the host might benefit. In Florida this isn't currently permitted. In the installation that I referenced using Tesla battery storage, the benefit goes straight to the utility who paid for the installation, not the host university.

    The charge rate of our cars are already limited by the battery chemistry and programmed into the car's firmware accordingly. I have an A battery and it will only charge at up to 90 kW. Other cars are limited to 120 kW.

    If they wanted the battery storage system to deliver capacity greater the local utility supply and greater than the current Supercharger capacity I guess that there would have to be switching and control circuitry added to bypass the Superchargers and go directly to the charging terminals. Otherwise that DC current would have to be converted back to AC and delivered to the Supercharger, but then the Supercharger would have to have additional chargers in the stack to handle the additional capacity.

    As a side note, in situations where Superchargers experience congestion, regardless of how the added capacity is supplied, there would be some benefit in having Supercharger capacity in excess of what an individual car could handle. The car's firmware would continue to regulate the charging rate consistent with what its battery can handle. However, in a congested station the added capacity could be shared between charging terminals at a higher average rate. The net result would be greater average throughput through the Supercharger Station even though individual cars never exceed their rated maximum allowed capacity.

    Larry
     
  16. Ingineer

    Ingineer Electrical Engineer

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    I bet the 12 charger modules used in each SC cabinet can easily accept DC directly from the storage battery with just a simple relay needed on each one to toggle between AC 277V and DC. When the SC's aren't in use, another relay on the output of the SC can select charge from the SC to the battery. Thus with only a control board and a handful of relays, they have a pretty simple addition. It would be silly to invert the output of the battery to 277VAC only to have it taken back to DC in the front end of the charger module.
     
  17. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    The chargers only accept AC input. I do think converting DC to AC then back to DC is silly. I'm just trying to imagine the interconnect sound when trying to do that. Also, how would you modulate the power if you're going DC to DC?
     
  18. Ingineer

    Ingineer Electrical Engineer

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    The Tesla charger module input section's front end is a bridge rectifier, thus the first thing they do is to convert incoming 277VAC into 370VDC. This is then boosted for PFC (Power factor correction) to probably around 400-450VDC with a non-isolated boost converter, then it's sent to the isolated switch mode supply to generate the final 50-410VDC output for charging. Unless Tesla specially created a firmware check to inhibit operation without AC input, then there is no reason the system wouldn't run fine on DC. (And of course Tesla could remove this check on the SC firmware)

    Most AC switch mode supplies, such as the kind Laptops and Cell phone chargers use, work quite fine on DC for the same reason.

    There is no need to "modulate" power anywhere else, as this is what the SC already does quite fine. The only difference is that it's using the battery bank instead of the 277V line.
     

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