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Powerwall 2 and Central Air question

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jurmanji

New Member
Aug 14, 2018
4
0
LA
Am putting in an 7.15KW system and was thinking about doing 2 powerwalls. Would that power the central AC 3-31/2 ton (Trane XL14i) overnight? I'd love to stop paying the power company all together. In LA and since we are central it stays hot at night.

Had read somewhere that a single phase soft starter could be helpful.

Love any thoughts and help!

Thanks!
 
Am putting in an 7.15KW system and was thinking about doing 2 powerwalls. Would that power the central AC 3-31/2 ton (Trane XL14i) overnight? I'd love to stop paying the power company all together. In LA and since we are central it stays hot at night.

Had read somewhere that a single phase soft starter could be helpful.

Love any thoughts and help!

Thanks!

The short answer is likely no. A better answer is going to require more information and time.
 
A soft starter will nearly be a must, as even my rinky-dink A/C used to draw more than 90 Amps during start (with the soft-start, it draws about 24 or so). You'd be close to the current limit, even with two PowerWalls. Tesla will install the soft starter for you, included with everything else.

With two PowerWalls, you'd have 27 kWh maximum (if they're both fully charged when you start running your A/C in the evening). My 3-ton A/C draws 2.6 kW when it runs, and my house takes about 0.3 kW to keep things running at night, so, 2.9 kWh for an hour. So if I ran it for 9.5 hours continuously, I'd completely drain both fully-charged Powerwalls.

However, of course, the A/C does not stay on continuously. And, I've set up my Nest to keep things comfortable during the night-- start out at a higher temperature, but drop the temp every couple of hours. That way the A/C runs more efficiently as the ambient temp cools down further at night. So, it doesn't have to run as long each cycle, but it keeps the rooms at a nice temperature. So, let's say I run the A/C a total of about 6 hours at night (4 cycles, 1.5 hours each cycle). That would put total power consumed at 17.4 kWh. You can use that as a point of reference. It'll depend on how drained your PowerWalls are when the panels are no longer producing, how much other power your house draws during the night, and how many total hours you run the A/C at night.

From early March to the second week of July, I was 100% running on only solar and one PowerWall, so I'm rooting for you. I imagine I'll return to that in Fall, and most of Winter.

Best Wishes!
 
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Am putting in an 7.15KW system and was thinking about doing 2 powerwalls. Would that power the central AC 3-31/2 ton (Trane XL14i) overnight? I'd love to stop paying the power company all together. In LA and since we are central it stays hot at night.

Had read somewhere that a single phase soft starter could be helpful.

Love any thoughts and help!

Thanks!

I would assume your power company is LADWP?

I have a 5-ton Trane unit and it uses about 25-30 kwhr a day during the summer to keep my house cooled down. I live around the Irvine area of CA.

I have 2 PWs and using my AC from 2pm-8pm and regular house draw will drain my batteries down to about 30-35% from 100% during those 6-hours. No way would they last all night.

For SCE the peak time is 2pm-8pm so my house is powered on batteries alone and all solar generation goes back to the grid to maximise by return.
 
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If you are not planning to use the AC off-grid/backup, is the soft started necessary? I was told that during peak hour, the PW2 will be discharging to meet all needs in the house for as long as possible including the AC. In fact, my AC is on the other side of the backup gateway so when the grid goes down, I will not have AC anyway.

Cannot test our my assumption yet as I don't have PTO from PG&E yet.

Am putting in an 7.15KW system and was thinking about doing 2 powerwalls. Would that power the central AC 3-31/2 ton (Trane XL14i) overnight? I'd love to stop paying the power company all together. In LA and since we are central it stays hot at night.

Had read somewhere that a single phase soft starter could be helpful.

Love any thoughts and help!

Thanks!
 
As you suspected, the extra current should come from the grid if the grid is still connected. I haven't tested this exact scenario, but I have pulled more than 10 kW, and there is no issue doing that. 10 kW come from the Powerwalls and the rest comes from the grid.
Also, if you're not going to install soft start and you're not going to run it during an outage, you should have it wired outside the gateway. Then the whole soft start thing is a non-issue.
 
Am putting in an 7.15KW system and was thinking about doing 2 powerwalls. Would that power the central AC 3-31/2 ton (Trane XL14i) overnight? I'd love to stop paying the power company all together. In LA and since we are central it stays hot at night.

Had read somewhere that a single phase soft starter could be helpful.

Love any thoughts and help!

Thanks!
Just got our Powerwalls installed and turned on. Our electrician did not have a soft starter. He referred us back to the A/C manufacturer...we ended up calling our a/c guy and he said, "You need a Hard Start kit". Googled it and yes, indeed we do. A hard start kit reduces the amps of energy required when the a/c turns on. And yes, our A/C was a HUGE drain when it kicked and started draining the Powerwall. It'll cost around $300, but worth it over the long haul.
 
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Just got our Powerwalls installed and turned on. Our electrician did not have a soft starter. He referred us back to the A/C manufacturer...we ended up calling our a/c guy and he said, "You need a Hard Start kit". Googled it and yes, indeed we do. A hard start kit reduces the amps of energy required when the a/c turns on. And yes, our A/C was a HUGE drain when it kicked and started draining the Powerwall. It'll cost around $300, but worth it over the long haul.



Hard Start is not a Soft Start. Hard start kits don't actually reduce the LRA (locked rotor amps) necessary to start the compressor. The hard start kit simply shortens the time the motor remains in its locked rotor state. So you'll sometimes find these hard starts being added onto older equipment where age is causing the system to need that extra kick from the hard start to get the compressor going. But the kick is taking power too; the hard start is not flattening out the demand curve like a soft start would.

Hard start kits actually cause more wear and tear on a newer compressor. There's an event called "torque shock"... and you could actually be harming your compressor without actually making it easier for your Powerwalls to get the compressor going.


Hard start devices can do nothing to actually reduce the current the motor draws when it is at locked rotor (stalled), the hard start device simply gets it out of that stalled / low RPM as quickly as possible.

Many of you may note that when you measure inrush current with a hard start in a place that it will show lower than when it is not in place. This is simply because a hard start shortens the time the motor remains in the locked rotor, not because it actually reduces the starting amps.


The soft starts actually need to be "trained" a few times upon compressor startup. The technology inside senses what is happening for those first few milliseconds during LRA, and modulates accordingly so future starts draw less inrush current. The installation manuals for the Hyper and Emerson Soft Starts explain this in more detail. This is why you can't wait for your power to be out before rigging up a soft start and watching your air conditioner turn on.

Unfortunately, you're probably in the same boat as me and dealing with some stubborn HVAC people that simply do not know what a soft start (or secure start) is doing. My area is surrounded by 20+ year vets who have only ever installed hard starts; they only know hard start kits and think they're all the same. It's insanely frustrating to deal with since the old-school folks just don't understand why you'd need a soft start kit when dealing with an ESS.

They're HVAC people after all; they've probably installed hundreds of hard start kits for other homeowners that have trouble getting their compressors to start up. So if you tell them you need help with your compressor, their brain automatically gravitates to what they know without understanding why your situation is unique.
 
I can speak for my Trane Xi20. It requires 3 PowerWalls to run along with the Soft Start. MY AC guy measured it and it pulls 65A on power up, which is 5 more than 2 PWs can handle. (I've got a bad PW and waiting for a replacement. That's why I know I cannot run the HVAC on 2.)
 
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I can speak for my Trane Xi20. It requires 3 PowerWalls to run along with the Soft Start. MY AC guy measured it and it pulls 65A on power up, which is 5 more than 2 PWs can handle. (I've got a bad PW and waiting for a replacement. That's why I know I cannot run the HVAC on 2.)
Ouch. Guess I am happy each of my mini split compressors are only on 30 amp breakers. Now, I do have 3 PW's hooked to them, but not sure I need like you do
 
We have 3 Lennox compressors with 4 PowerWalls. Without modification, we could get 2 of the 3 to start - the 3rd one wouldn't start.

Contacted our HVAC service and requested soft starts. They ordered the manufacturer-recommended hard start kits.

We can now get all 3 compressors to run off the PowerWalls.
 
We have 3 Lennox compressors with 4 PowerWalls. Without modification, we could get 2 of the 3 to start - the 3rd one wouldn't start.

Contacted our HVAC service and requested soft starts. They ordered the manufacturer-recommended hard start kits.

We can now get all 3 compressors to run off the PowerWalls.


I might just have to bite the bullet and try the hard start instead of the soft start.

My downstairs thermostat just died this morning (no, hitting reset on it didn'twork). So a tech came out today. I asked him if there was a chance he knew what a Soft Start or Secure Start was so he could help me wire it up.

Like the 10 other HVAC techs I've spoken with, they say "don't you mean hard start?" So it seems the industry doesn't view them as any differently, but clearly the technology behind the hard start and soft start are dramatically different. So I don't understand why they're viewed to be one and the same?

Tesla's literature clearly makes it sound like you need a soft start and not a hard start though. I don't think any of their installers put in hard starts as SOP.
 
I might just have to bite the bullet and try the hard start instead of the soft start.

My downstairs thermostat just died this morning (no, hitting reset on it didn'twork). So a tech came out today. I asked him if there was a chance he knew what a Soft Start or Secure Start was so he could help me wire it up.

Like the 10 other HVAC techs I've spoken with, they say "don't you mean hard start?" So it seems the industry doesn't view them as any differently, but clearly the technology behind the hard start and soft start are dramatically different. So I don't understand why they're viewed to be one and the same?

Tesla's literature clearly makes it sound like you need a soft start and not a hard start though. I don't think any of their installers put in hard starts as SOP.

Why do you think they are viewed as same?

I am no HVAC expert, but my simplified understanding from talking to HVAC techs is that hard start kit is typically used to overcome insufficient starting power to meet A/C LRA requirements. Soft start kit is more appropriate to deal with A/C startup in-rush problems.

Tesla is no HVAC expert. You are probably better off listening to HVAC specialists.
 
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Why do you think they are viewed as same?

I am no HVAC expert, but my simplified understanding from talking to HVAC techs is that hard start kit is typically used to overcome insufficient starting power to meet A/C LRA requirements. Soft start kit is more appropriate to deal with A/C startup in-rush problems.

Tesla is no HVAC expert. You are probably better off listening to HVAC specialists.


Because every single HVAC specialist I've asked about getting soft starts looks at me like I'm crazy and wasting their time. They always want to put in a hard start kit, and then I stop them. Then they get annoyed at me citing I don't know what I'm talking about. They insist hard start and soft start (or secure start or sure start or whatever) are the same thing.
 
Because every single HVAC specialist I've asked about getting soft starts looks at me like I'm crazy and wasting their time. They always want to put in a hard start kit, and then I stop them. Then they get annoyed at me citing I don't know what I'm talking about. They insist hard start and soft start (or secure start or sure start or whatever) are the same thing.

Not sure why they tell you they are the same. Unless they are just not familiar with soft starter and just assumed you meant hard starter since they keep telling you to install a hard starter. I think soft starters (SureStart, EasyStart, etc.) have been mainly used for RV's rather than home central A/C so some HVAC tech's may not be familiar with them. What does your A/C vendor recommend?
 
Not sure why they tell you they are the same. Unless they are just not familiar with soft starter and just assumed you meant hard starter since they keep telling you to install a hard starter. I think soft starters (SureStart, EasyStart, etc.) have been mainly used for RV's rather than home central A/C so some HVAC tech's may not be familiar with them. What does your A/C vendor recommend?


Yeah, I know the differences between a hard start and a soft start (or whatever branded funny name people want to call them). I posted earlier in this thread about the differences.

But HVAC techs near me simply won't do the soft start. Every time I bring it up they just talk about hard starts then the conversation ends. The AC manufacturer (Lennox) won't authorize soft starts on their outdoor condensers or else I risk voiding my warranty. The AC installer naturally won't install the soft start since they don't know what it is.

So maybe I just need to try a hard start? If everyone who is paid to do this sort of thing is telling me they're the same; maybe they're the same? I just hope Elon increases the burst output capacity of the PW's to 7 kW... then 3 of these Powerwalls will be able to overcome that LRA to reliably start my Lennox gear.
 
When I asked our HVAC service to add "soft start" to our Lennox compressors - they recommended hard starts - and when I went to the Lennox website to check - that was also what Lennox recommended - so hard start is what we have.

And we've been able to run all 3 HVAC at the same time - off our 4 PowerWalls when running off grid... Which wasn't possible without the hard start upgrades.

It's possible PW 2+ might provide enough surge power to avoid adding the hard starts. But that's not what we have...