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Powerwall 2: Installation

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Quick Question (Just don't want to read through) but has anyone actually gotten solar panels and a powerwall 2 installed yet?

I haven't heard of ANYONE that ever got it done. I placed an deposit and Tesla/Solar City is working on it. Because I was in CA the salesman at Tesla said I should get the whole installation, design, finalization EVERYTHING in about 45 days... it's been longer and I still don't know much apart from "design was complete".

Also, in person I was told with a 3.6kwH system + 1 powerwall I will be 95% reliant on my panels. That seems REALLY too good to be true BS. That's apparently with charging a Tesla Model X and Model 3.

And yes they reviewed my energy bill history.

From 11k I got them down to 9k, which is honestly a steal considering I get a powerwall too.

I'm just so confused as to how this will actually work. Can someone more knowledgeable review what I've said?

My Situation:

5 Bedroom, Electric Dryer, Two Electric Cars 60 Mile Commute. Central AC
 
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Pragmatically and practically, Tesla is basically correct, and technically, SGIP is correct. Pick your poison :p:D:eek::mad:o_O

As I recall, the inside sticker of each battery said their capacity is 14.3kWh (so 14,300 amp hours). Mine is currently slightly over-rated at around 28,800Wh for two batteries (so 14,400Wh), but that fluctuates with time; it's a BMS that guesses the capacity through time and deterioration. I would have to look at the sticker for the nominal battery voltage. Continuous power output of each battery inverter is 5kW, peak is 7kW.


No, they didn't tell the truth. You can't be doing home, X, and 3 from 1 PW2 & a 3.6kW panels and be 95% reliant on the solar, unless your commute is like 20 miles or something and you have no electric heating or air conditioning or dryers, in which case I say maybe. Your location is Long Beach; at least it's not implausible. But there seems to be a fog of unreality around this. Long Beach: long drives on the long freeways? Not with what they said.

Yes, I had solar already, and got two PW2 installed. I'm not the only one.
Thanks so much!

Re-negotiated for 4.25 kwh system. What do you think about that? Still seems small to me.

Also live in the Bay Area, not long beach not sure where you saw that...
 
Thanks so much!

Re-negotiated for 4.25 kwh system. What do you think about that? Still seems small to me.

Also live in the Bay Area, not long beach not sure where you saw that...

Be careful with terminology/units.

kWh <--- kilowatt-hours
If you multiply power by time, you get energy. Your batteries (home/car/phone/etc.) store a certain amount of energy. For the Powerwall2, this is around 14 kWh. So let's say you turn on a hair dryer that uses 2000 watts, or 2 kW. 14 kWh divided by 2kW means you could run that hair dryer for 7 hours before the Powerwall is drained from 100% to 0%.

kW <--- kilowatts
This is the power produced. Your solar installation will be rated in kilowatts of power produced at maximum sun altitude with clean panels and perfectly dry air. I have two SolarCity installations - one rated at 3 kW and the other at 4 kW, as they show up in the SolarCity app. Have I ever gotten 7,000 watts from them? No, because reading the fine print shows they are actually about 2700 W and 3800 W respectively. OK, so at some point I should have been producing 6500 W - more than enough to run my A/C and charge my electric smart, right? Still, no. The "3 kW" array faces south, so it peaks as the Sun crosses the meridian (about 1pm PDT, or noon PST - varies with the equation of time). My "4 kW" array faces mostly west, so it peaks about an hour or two later. That's what I asked for, since the house starts to bake in the afternoon sun, so that's when I'll run the AC more.

Highest wattage output I've seen? About 5400 W total. However, all of the activity at the ports in Long Beach (I'm in Long Beach - that's what got the previous posting person confused) puts a significant amount of particulates in the air. On most days, I see the combined output of my two systems top out at 4.8 kW. And if I leave a car outside for a few days (or weeks - like what happens with the long range ICE), there is a significant amount of dirt that gets wiped away when I spray down the windshield before driving.

Yes, you want a bigger array. You always want a bigger array.

If there are no loads at your house during the day except for a refrigerator and maybe some cable boxes, you'll draw about 200 or so watts. If you could count on 4.25 kW from your solar array, 4 kW would be going to charge your battery.

It doesn't work that way. You'll get meager production when the Sun is low in the sky. The amount produced will be within roughly 80% of full capacity (if it's a sunny day, with dry air) for about 3 hours before and after the Sun crosses the meridian. If you can count on cloudless skies and clean panels, that should charge one Powerwall, and you would have a bit under 14 kWh to play with when you get home.

How many kWh do you use daily on your commute? In my smart, it's maybe 3.5 to 4 kWh. That's at about 0.25 kWh per mile and a 15 mile round trip.

I'm sure someone has a link to a good resource to play around with all these numbers, including a realistic solar output model.

The bottom line, as far as energy production is concerned, is you want a bigger array than you think you need.
 
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At my solar & powerwall info site Ulmo.Solar I uploaded some in-progress installation photographs of SolarCity installing the Tesla PowerWall system at Index of /tesla/energy/powerwall/installation_in_progress/. Please note that this was before labeling and final, so I will have to go edit and publish the final photographs when I get time. Also please note that although the above installation is very simple, some clarifications could help those who are in a hurry so they don't have to trace everything. I have a flu now; that's not happening today. Note that the following capabilities and pieces are not used and abandoned:
  • SolarEdge battery backup & connection (anyone have cheap PowerWall 1(s) on sale? I'll buy it/them.)
  • Main panel solar connection
  • Main panel subpanel connection
This information should answer a few questions some people asked me, both in public and in private. Sorry that I can't break it down today to make it easier.

Some initial comments: As I'm looking at it in detail for the first time, I'm annoyed they used a 200 amp capable gateway and only put in 100 amp wires and breaker; they ought to have used the full 200 amps. There's a breaker there available; I presume they just didn't have the right wire on the truck. If I had selected "whole home backup", they probably would have made an easier installation and left the existing 200 amp connection. When Tesla HPWC, cars, and backup gateways communicate to coordinate with each other, I may specify that they do so, and that also depends on my major appliances and what I decide to do with them. People with automated communication and program obviousness between major loads and the Backup Gateway ought to just get Whole Home Backup option of the Tesla Backup Gateway. (This doesn't exist yet; cars don't talk to the gateway yet. Maybe never; total lack of communication from them on current status; last blog entry is dated July.)
 
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@Ulmo, thank you very much for those photos. I was collecting my new knowledge and was going to ask you for install photos and your solar test and then send you an update, but you beat me to part of the request. Your photos have already answered one of my pending questions, the NEMA and IP ratings. It is NEMA 3R, which is unfortunate. Worse than NEMA 3 and not strictly watertight. Even my solar inverters are watertight NEMA 4X, and they have had some problems in wind-driven rain. This gives me some worry.

Also it is too bad they make the manual transfer switch so hard to access. Even my generator 200A auto-transfer switch has a supplied insulated handle for doing a manual switchover between on-grid and off-grid.

In any case I am powering through and have talked to Tesla and installers and got a lot more information that help me to configure my system. The generator thing is still bothering me. I think I can either put a 2nd transfer switch before the battery and hence be able to charge the battery from generator, or else after the battery and be able to switch in to power whole house if battery is depleted and is night so solar cannot charge. Tesla says they designed Powerwall for off-grid applications with generator but nobody seems to know the recommended configuration for this. All official documentation from Tesla says the information is going to be released soon...

Also I am still interested in your daytime power-failure simulation during full solar generation (one of my other questions you responded to), but don't inconvenience your house occupants to do it. Also I think I have figured out that the powerwall is doing "frequency-modulation" to turn inverters on or off during grid failure. Since almost all modern inverters must obey a frequency as well as a voltage spec, this enables the battery to do this without extra control wiring.
 
@Ulmo, thank you very much for those photos. I was collecting my new knowledge and was going to ask you for install photos and your solar test and then send you an update, but you beat me to part of the request. Your photos have already answered one of my pending questions, the NEMA and IP ratings. It is NEMA 3R, which is unfortunate. Worse than NEMA 3 and not strictly watertight. Even my solar inverters are watertight NEMA 4X, and they have had some problems in wind-driven rain. This gives me some worry.
I really think these things should fit in something like your garage where it is already inside. That would neatly solve that problem, and as you point out, it seems necessary.
Also it is too bad they make the manual transfer switch so hard to access. Even my generator 200A auto-transfer switch has a supplied insulated handle for doing a manual switchover between on-grid and off-grid.
I'm not sure what that means. How is it hard? I just drop the 200 amp breaker at the top center of the main panel and it's disconnected from grid. (You can see it at http://ulmo.solar/tesla/energy/powerwall/installation_in_progress/Main_Panel/IMG_8157.JPG.) It takes all of 3 seconds to open the panel and drop the switch. I did it many times to test it, and it works great. Also, the switch in the lower right can be dropped; that's the Gateway. It happily keeps the solar talking to the PowerWalls, and the PowerWalls keep backing up the inside panel (i.e., the backed up panel). So, you can easily isolate not only the Gateway backed up panels from the grid, but you can even isolate your main panel from both the Gateway and the grid. The Gateway itself has an automatic switch that disconnects itself from its grid side so that there is no backfeeding (such as from solar generation, and presumably battery selling into the grid in the future when that becomes available and useful). Here's the uptime on two of my computers inside, having dealt with this test many times during that period:

Code:
 06:46:07 up 34 days, 14:55,  0 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.03, 0.00
 06:47:02 up 37 days, 12:35,  1 user,  load average: 0.03, 0.08, 0.11

I had to reconfigure the one at 34 days (swap hard disk), otherwise it would also say 37 days, which is the length of time I've had the PowerWalls installed. In fact, I can see when the Tesla energy was turned on just from that uptime: 6:11PM on July 20. Indeed, that's when it was complete from my memory.

Maybe your pessimism using fossil fuel devices is bleeding through to the beauty of using Tesla battery, inverter and gateway systems instead. This is a new electronics age; this isn't WWII era.

In any case I am powering through and have talked to Tesla and installers and got a lot more information that help me to configure my system. The generator thing is still bothering me. I think I can either put a 2nd transfer switch before the battery and hence be able to charge the battery from generator, or else after the battery and be able to switch in to power whole house if battery is depleted and is night so solar cannot charge. Tesla says they designed Powerwall for off-grid applications with generator but nobody seems to know the recommended configuration for this. All official documentation from Tesla says the information is going to be released soon...
That would be nice. To me, it seems like your generator should already be configured as-is and just stay there, and you follow the regular instructions for it, adding a Neurio to it for the Gateway as an option, and auto start from the Gateway as an option, but I have never read about those features from the Gateway.

Think of the Gateway like this: it will disconnect from grid or main panel power, isolating the grid or main panel side (i.e., the non-backed up side) from the backed up side. It will also tell the PowerWalls how much energy is being supplied by the solar power system, so that the PowerWalls will only charge from them. Other than that, it's a pretty passive device. You can have a lot on your electrical system, and as long as you think of the Gateway as knowing its immediate neighbors, it seems like it ought to be fine. Just don't try to confuse it with putting something on its side of a barrier without having it integrated.

Let me repeat: as far as the Gateway is concerned, it has Batteries, loads (backed up panel), Solar input, and something it thinks of as "toward the grid side of things". It doesn't care what the loads are (as long as they fit within its specs). It doesn't care what the solar is (as long as it behaves like a solar inverter); I plan to finally put a second-hand battery someday on my battery-backup capable SolarEdge (which is my solar inverter), and I expect to have to do no other configuration with the Tesla Gateway for that to work. It doesn't care if the utility is named PG&E, Joe's Horse Running Wheel Corral*, or Generator connected to main panel with a manual throw switch, or some combination of those.

So, what it might care about is a load side that has negative load; it might balk, and it might not. Ask the Tesla Engineers if you must put the generator on the "utility" side of the PowerWall. That just makes sense to me anyway, since the PowerWall might clean up the generator output, keeping your backed up panels cleaner. (No one has broken down how clean the output of the PowerWalls is, though.)

Also I am still interested in your daytime power-failure simulation during full solar generation (one of my other questions you responded to), but don't inconvenience your house occupants to do it.
Conditions were perfect for me yesterday, but I had a bad flu. I feel better today. Let's see if it gets sunny again.

Also I think I have figured out that the powerwall is doing "frequency-modulation" to turn inverters on or off during grid failure. Since almost all modern inverters must obey a frequency as well as a voltage spec, this enables the battery to do this without extra control wiring.

I heard that as one theory already; I've had no confirmations one way or the other.

---

* Frequency modulation with Joe's Horse Running Wheel will be difficult; probably some type of windmill type setup, or similar (CVT?), with horse-power-drop-initiated shutdown for times the horses just get too tired to run and it needs to shut down. You wouldn't care about the horses taking a rest because you have PowerWall. Nice thing is the running wheel would still operate even if no fuel was available for the generator. Of course, you'd still need horse fuel: rain, sun, and land to farm grass.
 
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Also it is too bad they make the manual transfer switch so hard to access. Even my generator 200A auto-transfer switch has a supplied insulated handle for doing a manual switchover between on-grid and off-grid.
I just re-read this and realized how completely unclear your statement is to me. Please clarify. Also, it might make sense for you to read my message before clarification, since perhaps it would help for you to understand. I think it's unnecessary for you to manually operate anything in the Tesla Backup Gateway (the Gateway).

I think this might be a mountain man vs urban thing. I've only very rarely seen backup generator transfer switches, and I've always found them to be problematic, since they are hard to automate in any type of seamless fashion with the grid. Is the transfer switch a double pole double landing switch with a disconnected middle switching section? That would be a type of isolation switch, isolating the grid from the backup generators. In that case, I go back to my original statement: that doesn't change; you just leave it on the grid side of your main service panel, and don't worry about it. If you want to change your "utility power" from PG&E to your generator, you can do so, at your manual whim. You don't need to touch anything in the Gateway during this switchover. You just do it. (It would be nice to turn off the connection to the Gateway (the breaker that goes to it) just so there's no errant weird power types flowing through during the switchover, but that might be a bad idea if you forget to turn it back on once the new power is up and wonder why the generator/utility isn't helping). The Gateway seems slow to reconnect the grid when grid is back (I mean by that the electrical source on what it thinks of as the grid, which could be your generator); "10 seconds" according to the installer, but I've experienced that and longer.

You would presumably only use your generator in situations in which it was needed. I think this would be an ideal case. It requires no more thought on your part than just having the PowerWalls and Gateway installed as normal.

You mentioned you hadn't yet hooked up your generators; I suppose you could wait until everything has been set in stone, but to me, theoretically, that wasn't necessary. Like I said, I don't know what kind of automatic transfer switch is available for generator switching, and in the case of a PowerWall backup system, you have half a day's notice anyway, so it's not like you have to remotely operate it (unless power drops at 6AM on your way to work and you have someone on life support and you don't get home til 9PM, in which case, of course, I'd look at this differently; someone would have to manually activate the transfer switch and the generator).

The problematic question is what to do with automatic generators: they would have to turn on only when the PowerWalls are low. I have a script that pulls the battery level % from the Tesla mothership via the Internet, but that presumes the Internet is up and running; I'm trying to find out how to read that % directly from the Gateway within the LAN, but haven't yet had luck. (There's a "provisioning" step that I am afraid to do.) If scripting can trigger, then that would work. A simple script-to-relay box would presumably do for most setups. Tesla has been very quiet about this, despite this being obviously a capability present in their hardware; if they expose the software properly, it would be trivial to set up an automatic generator startup when the batteries are at some level, such as 20%.

Edit:

Everything I own connected to the home power that generates electricity does so matching frequency. The PowerWalls do it. The SolarEdge does it. They're all modern electronics.

What I forgot is that generators come from an age when the utilities were deathly afraid of any competition, and successfully lobbied for generators to not ever include frequency matching hardware or software.

Your generators would obviously need to frequency match with the utility. This is a paradox in old-times speak because neither would be on at the same time. But in modern times, that isn't the case: the utility lives on, in echo, in the various home systems that continue running when the utility is down. The generator would get its frequency signal (i.e., a sampling line connected to something that is always up, such as your backed up panel) from your backed up panel. It would sync its frequency to your backed up panel, then allow you to connect; either it would have an automated switch, or a light to tell you that it has synchronized and it's time for you to manually throw your switch all the way over to generator mode.

And once again, I am wrong, I just realized; the Gateway already has provisions to re-match the frequency of whatever "utility" dog happens to be coming in to it: you can ignore this edit. The Gateway will just wait, having the PowerWalls skew to the correct frequency matching, then reconnect. That's probably what took so long last time I tested backup use. (It took longer than 10 seconds to reconnect. It was probably doing a very measured slow skew to correct synchronization.) That means the battery level should be pretty substantial when you start your generator, so the Gateway has time to match frequency and switch over. I'd like to know stats on how long this takes.

If the Gateway also uses frequency modulation to communicate with the solar inverters, then this could cause interference between two events; I wonder if Tesla properly programmed the Gateway for that. It also means frequency synchronizing the generators to the inside frequency would still be useful, unless it happens to pick the wrong side of a waveform timing and the Gateway prefers the other side, and they never match (that would be bad). The Tesla engineers could explain that, as well. It might just be easiest not to worry about it and let the Gateway handle the skewing and not have any sync line. Ideally, there would be a sync line to the generator (utility or whatever), and the Gateway would talk directly to the inverters in software rather than in power frequency modulation games.
 
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OK I talked to Tesla one more time today about my remaining concerns and I've now reserved two AC-PW2s. Woohoo! I think my install should be pretty easy in the end because I built in expansion at service entrance when I designed the solar. @Ulmo, I have "topographic constraints" that prevent me from installing the Powerwalls in garage, mainly because they are at a completely different elevation and several hundred feet away after buried 200A cables feed through service entrance and down through other buildings, and some critical stuff needing backup (water pumps) are at service entrance. It is easier to show you to explain, but basically the house was built with commercial style feedthru panels with the main high-amperage wiring feeding thru from mains to other "floors" (which here are other detached buildings).

And for those interested, I posted the official Powerwall Space Requirements from Tesla in the other install thread.
 
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I have a question for those of you who know much more than myself about the powerwall system. We had a power outage that lasted 18 hours, wondering two things, what would we need to run our well during this outage and can we adjust the power wall to let the peak generation go back into the grid as a credit. As it stands now our system works well because of the credits that we generate during the peak afternoon hours. If we took that away I'm not sure a powerwall would make sense, but it would be nice to have water during an outage.
 
I have a question for those of you who know much more than myself about the powerwall system. We had a power outage that lasted 18 hours, wondering two things, what would we need to run our well during this outage and can we adjust the power wall to let the peak generation go back into the grid as a credit. As it stands now our system works well because of the credits that we generate during the peak afternoon hours. If we took that away I'm not sure a powerwall would make sense, but it would be nice to have water during an outage.

Yes, you can have the feedback into the system continue during the peak afternoon hours. I assume the well is powered from the main on your house, if this is correct then either a whole-house backup, or a selective circuit backup which has the well circuit on the backup should work. Your exact usage profile would determine if you need 1, 2, etc. powerwalls to meet your needs.
 
Yes, you can have the feedback into the system continue during the peak afternoon hours. I assume the well is powered from the main on your house, if this is correct then either a whole-house backup, or a selective circuit backup which has the well circuit on the backup should work. Your exact usage profile would determine if you need 1, 2, etc. powerwalls to meet your needs.
Thanks for the input, I guess I would have to see what the well requirements are and of course it would only come on when we use water. Maybe also keep the fridge going.
 
I have a question for those of you who know much more than myself about the powerwall system. We had a power outage that lasted 18 hours, wondering two things, what would we need to run our well during this outage and can we adjust the power wall to let the peak generation go back into the grid as a credit. As it stands now our system works well because of the credits that we generate during the peak afternoon hours. If we took that away I'm not sure a powerwall would make sense, but it would be nice to have water during an outage.
There are no explicit settings in the PowerWall control system for Time-of-Use right now. Rumor has it that it will be coming "soon". However, if you have a relatively large solar system, the batteries will be full by the time the Peak hours come around and the solar generation will have nowhere to go but the grid to earn you NEM credits. Also, keep in mind that avoided usage after the sun goes down during the Peak time period has the same value as grid fed generation during the same period. That is what the PowerWall is good at - avoiding grid draw during the evening Peak hours.
 
There are no explicit settings in the PowerWall control system for Time-of-Use right now. Rumor has it that it will be coming "soon". However, if you have a relatively large solar system, the batteries will be full by the time the Peak hours come around and the solar generation will have nowhere to go but the grid to earn you NEM credits. Also, keep in mind that avoided usage after the sun goes down during the Peak time period has the same value as grid fed generation during the same period. That is what the PowerWall is good at - avoiding grid draw during the evening Peak hours.
Thanks miimura, another question is that I have sunpower equipment and other than Solar City is there a Bay Area installer that can install a powerwall system for me.
 
Thanks miimura, another question is that I have sunpower equipment and other than Solar City is there a Bay Area installer that can install a powerwall system for me.
When I spoke with SolarCraft in Sonoma a few months ago, they mentioned they'd applied to be installers.

Based on what we've read in this thread, I think it's going to be significantly cheaper to have SolarCity install your Powerwalls. They did a good job on mine and installation was fixed-price. FWIW, I also have Sunpower panels and and SMA inverter.
 
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When I spoke with SolarCraft in Sonoma a few months ago, they mentioned they'd applied to be installers.

Based on what we've read in this thread, I think it's going to be significantly cheaper to have SolarCity install your Powerwalls. They did a good job on mine and installation was fixed-price. FWIW, I also have Sunpower panels and and SMA inverter.
Thanks Mark, I guess from reading this thread over the last few months it sounds like they are still working out the bugs. If I decided to do the powerwall I will need to get more specific info on what tier they are in and what the SGIP rebate would be.
 
It looks like Tesla/SolarCity has a 6 week backlog of installs in the SF Bay area. I requested an install date today and the first available date is about 6 weeks out. They seem to have added an extra day to installs. They now estimate 1 day to change the main panel and 2 days to install the Powerwalls. The first time it was just 2 days total (I suspect they worked in parallel).

They tell you that the software only supports self-consumption today and that an over the air upgrade will enable more features in the future.

Tesla did end up submitting my application in step 2, I've received confirmation last week that I'm in the reservation review phase (I believe RRF here:
https://www.selfgenca.com/report/public/)

arnold
 
After a long period of waiting, I have received my 2 Powerwalls. Now I am waiting for the installer. Unfortunately he left for a 3 week vacation just as the powerwalls arrived.

My system:

3 years ago built a garage for 3 cars (S≡X), plus an open parking spot plus a shack.
Put 30kW worth of solar panels on the roof. Currently being used to feed the cars, surplus goes in the house, anything left after that goes to the grid.

The Powerwalls are to go in the shack.

We pay about 0.30 Euro per kWh from the grid. When we sell a kWh to the grid we get 0.13 Euro. Currently we break even with our consumption (not in kWh but in Euros). With the powerwall we expect a positive net cash flow.
 
I apologize if this has been covered, but I haven't read all 39 pages of this thread.

What are folks in SoCal paying for Powerwall installs? I have one quote from an installer for $20,000 total for 2 Powerwalls. That cost does include the 2 Powerwalls, but otherwise it seems very high. I would be doing this as part of my solar installation if that matters. Advantage they have is they have the powerwalls in stock so I could proceed immediately and maximize my chances at getting the SGIP rebate. But I don't want to overpay on the install costs either.
 
What are folks in SoCal paying for Powerwall installs? I have one quote from an installer for $20,000 total for 2 Powerwalls.
I certainly wouldn't pay $20K, even with rebates! I expect that number includes a fair amount of padding and might be negotiable.

I believe I recall, from upthread, bids from Tesla being about $12K or $13K, all in, for two Powerwall 2 units. With Tesla, you'd probably be in line for SGIP Step 3 due to per-installer caps at each "step", which would mean a somewhat smaller rebate than if you went with a third party installer and qualified for SGIP Step 2.

Also, I'm not a tax professional, but it appears that if you install both solar and an accompanying battery during the same tax year, then you should be able to claim the 30% federal income tax credit for the entire PV+battery system.
 
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