I assume that they are going through SoCal gas to make program administration simpler so they don't have to deal with all the small electric entities in Southern California. The benefit is to the whole CA ISO area.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives
- Thread starter avesraggiana
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Powerwall Tesla Energy
brucet999
Active Member
Ah, so it is cheaper than adding enough PV capacity to eliminate the true-up cost?
BTW, if you take the money from investments to buy the PowerWall, that reduction in annual true-up cost can be seen as a tax-free alternative investment return, instead of the taxable return on the securities you liquidated to buy the PW. Even if the reduction of PG&E bills were exactly the same in dollars as the reduction of investment portfolio income, after income taxes, assuming 35% state and Federal, PW would amount to a 54% better investment.
brucet999
Active Member
Newport Coast is SCE territory, hardly a small electric entity. But even for customers of small electric entities, what would SoCalGas have to do with it? They don't sell electricity to anyone.
It would probably be cheaper to add enough kW of solar to zero out my bills, but the problem is that I'm on NEM 1.0 and I can't add more than 1kW of solar or else I'll be pushed into NEM 2.0 and I'll have to pay more than 5c/kWh in Non-Bypassable Charges for all my EV charging. If I was going to add solar, I would rather spend more money to directly charge batteries through a charge controller and wire a hybrid inverter to my household subpanel, than pay NBC's. Anyway, I want to get the PowerWall because I've wanted backup power for this house since I had it built more than 4 years ago. I just couldn't bring myself to spend the money on a noisy NatGas generator.
Just received and signed my rebate forms. I am installing 2 Powerall 2's, the maximum number that you can get a rebate on. Here is what my rebate looks like:
It assumes that I will take the 30% ITC. Adding the SGIP Incentive and the 30% ITC together, it covers 100% of my system cost.
It assumes that I will take the 30% ITC. Adding the SGIP Incentive and the 30% ITC together, it covers 100% of my system cost.
brucet999
Active Member
Ah, one more way PG&E (along with all the other power companies) is resisting the growth of net metering.
Solar City sent me a revised SGIP rebate incentive early this morning saying that SGIP updated their calculator, Here is the revised rebate amount.
This now is showing that the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) is not being taken.
So for 2 Powerwalls the cost would be $15,407 - $11,750 = $3,657 which works out to being the same as the original amount according to miimura's calculation, but do not need the extra step of filing for the ITC. Still a great price for 2 Powerwalls!
This now is showing that the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) is not being taken.
So for 2 Powerwalls the cost would be $15,407 - $11,750 = $3,657 which works out to being the same as the original amount according to miimura's calculation, but do not need the extra step of filing for the ITC. Still a great price for 2 Powerwalls!
The SGIP site says that if a Powerwall is solely used for backup then it does not qualify for the incentives. There are certain criteria that need to be met in order to qualify for the incentive. According to my application:
"Requirements of Host Customers and System Owners:
• The energy storage system owner and/or Host Customer have the tools to control the usage of the energy storage
system when operating in parallel with the grid.
• Provide performance data to the Program upon request (emailed, zipped file of 15 minute interval data) for a period of
five (5) years.
• Pass the energy storage Field Verification Inspection.
• Host Customer and/or System Owner are required to discharge the energy storage system a minimum of 52 full
discharges per year. A “full discharge” is the equivalent of discharging the SGIP-incentivized energy capacity,
whether it is during a single or multiple discharges.
• Fulfill either of the two following conditions:
o Option A: the Host Customer is on a TOU tariff, dynamic tariff (e.g. PG&E’s SmartRate or SDG&E’s Reduce Your
Use), or agrees to integrate load through the California Independent System Operator’s Proxy Demand Response, or
equivalent tariff, prior to receiving the SGIP incentive and for five (5) years thereafter. Note that in the event that the
Hose Customer changes to a non-TOU tariff or is no longer enrolled in a demand reduction program, the energy
storage System Owner is required to notify the Program Administrator within 30 days of change, and will be subject to
Option B for the required five year period.
o Option B: the Host Customer and/or System Owner agrees, for a minimum period of five (5) years, to discharge the
energy storage system in an amount equivalent to 52 complete cycles per year of the incentivized energy capacity,
which is defined as two hours of discharge at the SGIP incentivized power capacity rating, with discharges occurring
during peak hours or peak day events (such as those called by PG&E’s SmartRate program or SDG&E’s Reduce
Your Use), of the applicable IOU service territory."
If I remember load shifting is allowed as part of the "discharge" requirement. Otherwise, I read that on high demand days, the utility can use your battery to help meet the demand requirements.
"Requirements of Host Customers and System Owners:
• The energy storage system owner and/or Host Customer have the tools to control the usage of the energy storage
system when operating in parallel with the grid.
• Provide performance data to the Program upon request (emailed, zipped file of 15 minute interval data) for a period of
five (5) years.
• Pass the energy storage Field Verification Inspection.
• Host Customer and/or System Owner are required to discharge the energy storage system a minimum of 52 full
discharges per year. A “full discharge” is the equivalent of discharging the SGIP-incentivized energy capacity,
whether it is during a single or multiple discharges.
• Fulfill either of the two following conditions:
o Option A: the Host Customer is on a TOU tariff, dynamic tariff (e.g. PG&E’s SmartRate or SDG&E’s Reduce Your
Use), or agrees to integrate load through the California Independent System Operator’s Proxy Demand Response, or
equivalent tariff, prior to receiving the SGIP incentive and for five (5) years thereafter. Note that in the event that the
Hose Customer changes to a non-TOU tariff or is no longer enrolled in a demand reduction program, the energy
storage System Owner is required to notify the Program Administrator within 30 days of change, and will be subject to
Option B for the required five year period.
o Option B: the Host Customer and/or System Owner agrees, for a minimum period of five (5) years, to discharge the
energy storage system in an amount equivalent to 52 complete cycles per year of the incentivized energy capacity,
which is defined as two hours of discharge at the SGIP incentivized power capacity rating, with discharges occurring
during peak hours or peak day events (such as those called by PG&E’s SmartRate program or SDG&E’s Reduce
Your Use), of the applicable IOU service territory."
If I remember load shifting is allowed as part of the "discharge" requirement. Otherwise, I read that on high demand days, the utility can use your battery to help meet the demand requirements.
Is there a conflict between SGIP and the ITC (which perhaps explains why jeep1979's revised SGIP estimate no longer includes the ITC)? SGIP option B requires you to discharge at peak times, whereas ITC requires you to charge from solar generation (which is primarily during peak).
It does seem like the Feds and CA have designed partially conflicting incentives. I do think SGIP is closer to the right answer...
It does seem like the Feds and CA have designed partially conflicting incentives. I do think SGIP is closer to the right answer...
SGIP and ITC can work together, but if you take the ITC, you get a reduced SGIP incentive.
"On the day the program reopens, the incentive level for energy storage systems larger than 10kW that do not take the investment tax credit (ITC) and all residential systems 10kW and smaller will be set at 50 cents/watt-hour. Projects that are larger than 10kW and take the ITC will have a lower initial incentive rate of 36 cents/watt-hour. We expect that demand will exceed the amount of funding for incentives at that level very quickly, and we therefore expect incentive levels to decrease by 10 cents/watt-hour shortly after SGIP reopens. If the decreased level of incentive also proves very popular and exceeds budgeted funding within 10 days, then the incentive level will decrease by another 10 cents/watt-hour."
Though this doesn't mentioned residential system less the 10kW taking the ITFC, I expect it incentive would also be reduced to 36 cents/watt-hour.
"On the day the program reopens, the incentive level for energy storage systems larger than 10kW that do not take the investment tax credit (ITC) and all residential systems 10kW and smaller will be set at 50 cents/watt-hour. Projects that are larger than 10kW and take the ITC will have a lower initial incentive rate of 36 cents/watt-hour. We expect that demand will exceed the amount of funding for incentives at that level very quickly, and we therefore expect incentive levels to decrease by 10 cents/watt-hour shortly after SGIP reopens. If the decreased level of incentive also proves very popular and exceeds budgeted funding within 10 days, then the incentive level will decrease by another 10 cents/watt-hour."
Though this doesn't mentioned residential system less the 10kW taking the ITFC, I expect it incentive would also be reduced to 36 cents/watt-hour.
Ulmo
Active Member
Solar City answered my question about whether I need to sign the Solar City PowerWall contract in order to get put into SGIP incentive application queue. The answer is yes, the PowerWall agreement has to be signed. They sent a rider saying I can cancel without losing deposit if SGIP doesn't approve me. That means I'm ten days behind everyone else in line, so may not get it. I went ahead and signed the PowerWall contract immediately.
Thanks to posters on this forum, I have an idea of how much the incentive is, but without that, I could be on the hook for a huge bill if SGIP approved me for a small amount. Thanks to TMC.
Thanks to posters on this forum, I have an idea of how much the incentive is, but without that, I could be on the hook for a huge bill if SGIP approved me for a small amount. Thanks to TMC.
As long as Solar City gets your paperwork on May 1, you have, almost, the same chance is everyone else. As Arnold said,, round 1 incentives will probably go to a lottery system because it will be oversubscribed. Unfortunately, the lottery will prioritize some applications including those located in the Los Department of Water and Power (How did L.A. do that?), those in the West Coast reliability area. Zip codes can be found here:
https://cxpaired with an on-site renewable generator.southerncaliforniaedison.com/static/uploads/files/706/ZipCodeList_SCE_WestLABasin_LRA_0.71028800%201490204817.pdf
Also, energy storage systems paired with an on-site renewable generator and claiming the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) or, if not claiming the ITC, charging a minimum of 75% from the on-site renewable generator.
Information from a SGIP WOrkshop presentation says:
1) If a lottery is conducted, a notification of the results of the lottery are sent to Applicants.
2) Applications that were not selected for funding in the current step through the lottery will be instructed on how to reapply for funding in the next step.
https://cxpaired with an on-site renewable generator.southerncaliforniaedison.com/static/uploads/files/706/ZipCodeList_SCE_WestLABasin_LRA_0.71028800%201490204817.pdf
Also, energy storage systems paired with an on-site renewable generator and claiming the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) or, if not claiming the ITC, charging a minimum of 75% from the on-site renewable generator.
Information from a SGIP WOrkshop presentation says:
1) If a lottery is conducted, a notification of the results of the lottery are sent to Applicants.
2) Applications that were not selected for funding in the current step through the lottery will be instructed on how to reapply for funding in the next step.
Ulmo
Active Member
That link is https://cx.southerncaliforniaedison.com/static/uploads/files/706/ZipCodeList_SCE_WestLABasin_LRA_0.71028800 1490204817.pdf
I see what you're talking about with local generation; for instance, from the 2017 SGIP handbook (link at SGIP | Resources):
So, in other words, I should modify my SGIP application to say I will be claiming the ITC and tell them I will generate from on-site solar PV.
I started Googling about, and started finding more information (much already mentioned in this thread):
Energy storage and generation incentives
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442452260
Demand Response FAQs
Demand Response Provided by Utilities
Energy Management Programs
That last one is very interesting to me, and what I've been asking for for quite some while. It looks like things are shaping up. It will be exciting to see this put into service. For now, SGIP gives us the boost to get these systems installed, so that development on variable use ("Demand Response") can be implemented, paying battery owners for utility use of those batteries ("Grid Services", if they elect to participate in such programs); this could reduce the installation cost of the batteries, even making them save money in the long run depending on the actual numbers (but more than likely just break even given the race to zero customer benefit most regulated monopolies love to do), in effect replacing SGIP and other programs (California 2017-2018 SB700 Bill Text - SB-700 Energy Storage Initiative.) to a degree.
---
Update: Found this great description: 2017 California Home Battery Rebate: Understanding SGIP | EnergySage
Last edited:
Ulmo
Active Member
So, if priority in the lottery is given to those with a Solar PV generation system and claiming the ITC, does that mean we should attempt to claim the ITC so we get in the lottery sooner? What is the % in the SGIP application? (30%?)
It would have been nice if they mentioned the increased priority in the lottery in the application itself.
Perhaps SolarCity is trying to apply for SGIP for its customers under the aggregation clauses?
Tomorrow we find out! Tomorrow, May 1, 2017, is start of the SGIP program. Looks like it's too late for me to modify my SGIP application to give the proper information about my solar system and ITC. I'll be lowest priority.
It would have been nice if they mentioned the increased priority in the lottery in the application itself.
Perhaps SolarCity is trying to apply for SGIP for its customers under the aggregation clauses?
Tomorrow we find out! Tomorrow, May 1, 2017, is start of the SGIP program. Looks like it's too late for me to modify my SGIP application to give the proper information about my solar system and ITC. I'll be lowest priority.
Last edited:
Actually if you view the Statewide Report it is already showing about 121 residential projects submitted for step 1 totalling 1844 kWh / 706 kW
https://www.selfgenca.com/documents/reports/statewide_projects
parent page - SGIP | Resources
Nice find! I see our project listed in there. It appears that LA Solar Group got their applications in earlier than Tesla/SolarCity.
Received acknowledgement from Edison that they did" indeed receive my application for the SGIP incentive from Solar City for the step 1 rebate. The application fee is 5% which in my case is $587.50. ($11,750 * 5%) was mailed out this morning. According to the 2017 SGIP handbook "the application fee will be returned upon completion and verification of the installed SGIP project. Prior to project completion, application fees are non-refundable once a Conditional Reservation or Confirmed Reservation has been issued. All forfeited application fees will be allocated to the Program Administrator’s current incentive step."
The handbook does not explicitly say what a forfeited application fee is, but in reading it appears that once the application fee is non-refundable and one pulls out of the project, that is when the application fee is forfeited.
The handbook does not explicitly say what a forfeited application fee is, but in reading it appears that once the application fee is non-refundable and one pulls out of the project, that is when the application fee is forfeited.
Similar threads
