Congratulations on getting your Ddeveloper's Key! But I get the feeling they are making a special exception for you. I also had a feeling they might evaluate my developers activities. I've been trying to keep meticulous records of my developer's activities and correspondence so I at least have a fighting chance of arguing my case if need be. My hope is that this all causes them to re-write the the handbook rules to clarify and make it easier for future homeowner's to apply.
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Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives
- Thread starter avesraggiana
- Start date
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- Tags
- Powerwall Tesla Energy
They clearly want to get a large installed base. I don't know if there's a long-term smart grid vision that's driving this or just wanting to corner the market. Either way, the lack of reported change orders on Tesla installations even when the work they do is more work than expected makes it pretty clear that getting Powerwalls installed is more important to them than making money on them right now.
Not only is Tesla charging less labor for actual install than a normal electrician would, but they're not charging for their time to wade through all the SGIP paperwork. However, people like Swell Energy are charging a fully burdened price for the install (done by a third party), plus a healthy fee for their time and effort doing sales and SGIP paperwork. For Step 1, they still make sense, but for later steps I would definitely hesitate to use them.
I'm not sure the SGIP red tape is costing all that much per customer.They've got economy of scale. And even if it was one off, how much would it really cost? I'm thinking hundreds of dollars, which isn't all that significant compared to the cost of a powerwall.
As for installation costs, I'm not sure what most electricians would charge, but $2000 to install a powerwall, with exposed conduit and no trenching, doesn't seem cheap to me. That's 20 hours at $100/hour! Some of that is probably materials, but still!
Tesla charged me just $900 for the complete installation of two powerwalls. I thought this was extremely reasonable as they had 4 techs out day 1 and 3 techs out on day 2. They did a great clean job with the installation. Also, remember that Tesla is covering the cost of the SGIP application fee which is 5% of the incentive rebate. In my case that amounted to $580, though this cost does not appear in my contract.
They quoted me $2000+$200, for an install that I don't think could be simpler. The backup gateway is an extra $700 (separate line item), and there are no new panels. Their website says "typical installation cost ranges from $800 to $2,000."
That does seem pretty cheap. Maybe they rolled up the SGIP application fee into my installation quote? Anyway, even at $2000, it's not too bad, considering the total cost of system. But the installers that are charging significantly more than that are doing so without reasonable justification, as far as I can tell.
Tesla may be willing to subsidize the cost of installing Powerwalls because they expect to make a profit on the Powerwall hardware. Each Powerwall has a roughly 14 kWh battery pack (usable capacity is lower). Even at a pack price of $200/kWh, that's only $2800 plus the enclosing hardware and the cost of the software. Given the retail price of $5500, I think there's room for profit, particularly with increasing scale.
Reasonable is an understatement. Even if your techs were only out there for 6 hours a day, that's 42 person hours on site. Market price is more like $4,000.
But the application fee gets refunded when the project is complete and the SGIP is claimed. I'm pretty sure those funds are going to go back to Tesla, not to you.
Cheers, Wayne
Yesterday, finally received my revised ICF, signed and sent it back in. Today, I received and signed another form called "Self-generation incentive program final project cost affidavit".
It consisted of the following.
By signing this affidavit (“Affidavit”), _______________________ (“Host Customer”) and _______________________ (“System Owner”, if different than the “Host Customer”), jointly referred to as “Parties”, with respect to that self-generation project (“Project”) at ______________________, which is partially funded by the ___________________ (“Program Administrator”) Self-Generation Incentive Program (“SGIP”) under Reservation Number _______________, each certify and declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of California that each of the statements in the paragraphs below are complete, true and correct. \
The Parties executed a Reservation Request Form (“RRF”) that references the SELF-GENERATION INCENTIVE PROGRAM CONTRACT (“Contract”) which in turn references this Affidavit. In order to meet the requirements of the Contract, Section 3.0, Parties attest that the statements in the following paragraphs are true.
1. At the time the incentive payment is made, System Owner is the owner of the self generation unit(s) which comprise the Project and all the statements below are true and correct:
o System Owner incurred all Eligible Project Costs referenced below,
o Project is operating as intended according to Contract,
o There are no post-sale agreements or agreements which go into effect after the initial sale is made which allow the seller or installer to use the self generation unit(s) which comprise the Project in a sales or promotion campaign.
o Eligible Project Costs are paid for in full except for an amount, which does not exceed the amount of incentive funding to be provided by Contract.
2. A description of Project includes the following information:
Project Address:
City, State ZIP
Generating or Energy
Storage Technology: Electochemical Storage
Generating Capacity: 26.4
3. Costs to Project as referenced below are defined in the SGIP Handbook, and are identical to the costs submitted by Parties to Program Administrator in the Final Project Cost Breakdown Spreadsheet.
Total Eligible Project Cost: $
Total Ineligible Project Cost: $
Total Project Costs: $
4. The following list includes all Other Incentives and Rebates, which assisted or may assist in the funding of Project.
Source Amount
1. $
2. $
Total $
Each of the undersigned certifies under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct and that each is duly authorized to sign this Affidavit.
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This indicates that they are checking whether or not you are taking/planning to take the ITC or any other rebates that may be available.
It consisted of the following.
By signing this affidavit (“Affidavit”), _______________________ (“Host Customer”) and _______________________ (“System Owner”, if different than the “Host Customer”), jointly referred to as “Parties”, with respect to that self-generation project (“Project”) at ______________________, which is partially funded by the ___________________ (“Program Administrator”) Self-Generation Incentive Program (“SGIP”) under Reservation Number _______________, each certify and declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of California that each of the statements in the paragraphs below are complete, true and correct. \
The Parties executed a Reservation Request Form (“RRF”) that references the SELF-GENERATION INCENTIVE PROGRAM CONTRACT (“Contract”) which in turn references this Affidavit. In order to meet the requirements of the Contract, Section 3.0, Parties attest that the statements in the following paragraphs are true.
1. At the time the incentive payment is made, System Owner is the owner of the self generation unit(s) which comprise the Project and all the statements below are true and correct:
o System Owner incurred all Eligible Project Costs referenced below,
o Project is operating as intended according to Contract,
o There are no post-sale agreements or agreements which go into effect after the initial sale is made which allow the seller or installer to use the self generation unit(s) which comprise the Project in a sales or promotion campaign.
o Eligible Project Costs are paid for in full except for an amount, which does not exceed the amount of incentive funding to be provided by Contract.
2. A description of Project includes the following information:
Project Address:
City, State ZIP
Generating or Energy
Storage Technology: Electochemical Storage
Generating Capacity: 26.4
3. Costs to Project as referenced below are defined in the SGIP Handbook, and are identical to the costs submitted by Parties to Program Administrator in the Final Project Cost Breakdown Spreadsheet.
Total Eligible Project Cost: $
Total Ineligible Project Cost: $
Total Project Costs: $
4. The following list includes all Other Incentives and Rebates, which assisted or may assist in the funding of Project.
Source Amount
1. $
2. $
Total $
Each of the undersigned certifies under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct and that each is duly authorized to sign this Affidavit.
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This indicates that they are checking whether or not you are taking/planning to take the ITC or any other rebates that may be available.
I am planning to go to the quarterly SGIP workshop on 2/9 in San Diego (Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP) Quarterly Workshop | CSE)
Anyone want to meet up there?
Anyone want to meet up there?
SoundDaTrumpet
Member
Encourage folks to show up in person to voice opinion. Due to problems with too many callers not muted their phones, all is done via audit mode. All comments from callers were done via WebEx, and the online moderator answered the questions online (which is later captured in meeting minutes), but not shared during the meeting itself.
Since it's local to me, I'm going in person. Hope there are other people willing to go, too!
SoundDaTrumpet
Member
I was able to get to the bottom of my mini-crisis by contacting both PG&E SGIP and CPUC SGIP administrators. Simply put, Tesla misunderstood an inquiry from PG&E about developer specifics of my installation, and communicated the disappointing news to me that my reservation application was cancelled. As a courtesy, not required in accordance with CPUC SGIP, PG&E only needed to have me complete the revised Developer Application so PG&E has a record of my developer activities in order to verify my developer activities at the time of ICF / system inspection. In conclusion, PG&E SGIP directly approved my revised developer application, and contacted Tesla to clear up any grievances against my installation. I indicated development activities (1 thru 5, and 8 thru 9 out of the total 13) on my submitted application, and did not assume any more activities because (a) the rules don't apply until Step 3, and (b) the whole purpose of the courtesy application is to provide final documentation to set expectations from the homeowner developer (e.g. If I state I am making 100 cupcakes, I better make a 100 cupcakes and no less.)
Thanks for the encouragement to not give up. I should be good now.
So for SGIP, how long do you have to after applying for the credit to actually install all the hardware and pass inspection? I'm building a house but it won't be done for another 9 months or so... We're in the process of designing all the solar etc... now, and I am wondering if we could apply for SGIP now rather than after the house is built as we'll be on a new step in PGE land by then.
thanks,
mike
thanks,
mike
You have a year to complete the project once you receive confirmation. But you will need to know battery manufacturer, installer if different, and technical stats of the battery you want to install in order to reach the confirmation stage. You will need to know if you are installing one or two batteries. You may also need to know the specs of your PV system. So in your case it may not make sense since you haven't determined your battery situation and designed your system yet. Plus who knows, in 9 months something bigger, better and cheaper might come along. I heard Audi motors is coming up with their version of the Powerwall.
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