I was working with another homeowner developer near my home. He had good communication and contacts with both SCE and Tesla. At first Tesla said they would supply the interval data for the both of us. He waited and waited for this data. I gave up and did it myself. I was able to complete the process and get my check. After a month, maybe two, they finally said that they would be classifying Tesla as developer of his project. We still produced the interval data and sent it in. They accepted it. Tesla took over as developer as a last minute formality. But the homeowner submitted the test data, had the tester come out and sign off on the final inspection report and he received his check.
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Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives
- Thread starter avesraggiana
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- Powerwall Tesla Energy
Deuce24
Member
So I'm incredibly late to this party, but I just got my Model 3 and have a 7.5 kWh system installed on my roof. I'm interested in PowerWall, but they're so damn expensive for very little financial benefit without incentives (15+ year ROI). Are there still beneficial incentives available for someone that doesn't have a PowerWall reservation that would help relieve the cost of each PowerWall at ~$10,000 installed? Thanks so much in advance.
The current SGIP program is full as far as installations by Tesla are concerned, but I believe the program has been renewed so if you wait long enough, the incentives may return.
Powerwalls are also eligible for the federal ITC. This is the same tax credit you claimed for your solar installation. You are allowed to claim the ITC even if your Powerwalls are installed separately from your solar system as long as you charge your Powerwalls only from solar.
Congrats on your Model 3! Truly an awesome car (as is every Tesla vehicle).
You can almost certainly still get SGIP rebates on Powerwalls if you go through a third party installer like Swell Energy or LA Solar Group. (Tesla has pretty much maxed out its allocation as a "developer".) The downside is that those third party installers will charge more than Tesla. I went with Tesla as the installer and it's now uncertain whether I'll even get an SGIP rebate at all, in which case I would have been better off going through LA Solar Group (they were willing to negotiate some on the all-in price).
Our Powerwalls give us peace of mind because we live in a semi-rural mountain area that sometimes gets power outages, and I'd rather not have to deal with a generator and keep fresh gasoline on hand. Given the recent wildfires elsewhere in our state, and the vulnerable nature of much of our grid, I won't be surprised to see more pre-emptive power outages during high wind events.
While I also like the fact that the Powerwalls enable us to self-consume more of our solar generation, I agree that the ROI isn't sufficient to justify acquiring Powerwalls unless one or more of the following conditions are met:
1. You want/need a home energy backup system that doesn't depend on fossil fuels and can be recharged from your solar array if you have solar. In this case, ROI is subjective - it depends on the likelihood of outages and how much you value keeping your home powered.
2. Your electric utility doesn't support net metering, a common challenge outside California.
3. You're somehow able to find a third party installer that can come close to Tesla's pricing.
Deuce24
Member
Thank you, this is a very comprehensive post, and exactly what I was looking for.
For me, outages aren't a big concern. I've lived in my home for nearly a decade, and I think I can remember one time? a planned outage occurred where they upgraded some nearby powerline/etc equipment. I think it was less than 12 hours.
I'm also in SoCal, and am on the net metering 1.0 grandfathered agreement with SCE, so I'm all good there.
I'm not sure how much different the price is from a 3rd party installer, but knowing I can get some incentives through some of the other non-Tesla installers, I will probably call around to get some bids now. Have they been known to cost exorbitantly more? The Tesla site estimates $14,500 for equipment costs for 2 Powerwalls, which I think would be my starting point. I'm seeing some online forums saying they were getting quotes around $21,000 pre-incentives for install on 2 Powerwalls, which seems kinda high.
I think Powerwalls are truly most attractive thinking I could add some more panels, get 3 Powerwalls and potentially go completely off-grid. But that would completely negate any SGIP incentive as I understand it. I'm not really paying anything for energy right now though, in fact my SCE bill is -$550, so I think staying connected is beneficial at the moment.
Realistically, I doubt you are going to find a third-party installer willing to install two Powerwalls for less than about $20,000.
If you do not need a backup system, and you are not paying anything significant for energy thanks to your solar panels, then there is basically no economic reason for you to install Powerwalls. You would likely be helping the grid to absorb a bit more solar energy, which is obviously good for the environment, but the benefit would be pretty small compared to the money spent.
I think the only way to justify Powerwalls in your position would be if you desire to support Tesla by buying their products and if you want to have the pleasure of adding some cool technology to your home. If you have money to spare, that would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but it would not be for most people.
If you do not need a backup system, and you are not paying anything significant for energy thanks to your solar panels, then there is basically no economic reason for you to install Powerwalls. You would likely be helping the grid to absorb a bit more solar energy, which is obviously good for the environment, but the benefit would be pretty small compared to the money spent.
I think the only way to justify Powerwalls in your position would be if you desire to support Tesla by buying their products and if you want to have the pleasure of adding some cool technology to your home. If you have money to spare, that would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but it would not be for most people.
Duece24, I agree with Abasile. In the beginning, when Tesla was able to file your SGIP rebate, getting a Powerwall or two was absolutely a good value. It made total sense. With the rebate and the tax incentive, I was able to get two Powerwalls for less than the price of of a gasoline generator which supplied the same or less energy needs. Third party installers basically keep your rebate. You might as well go directly with Tesla and forget the rebate process. However, having gone through two wildfires in two years(Thomas, Hill/Woolsey), having my Powerwalls allowed me to have internet/t.v/phone service when I needed it the most. We had a community meeting where people complained about not getting cellphone alerts, notifications and not having the information needed to make evacuation decisions because their electrical services and cell towers weren't functioning. Your Powerwalls are going to work as long as they are not compromised and you will have electrical services as long as they are available. If you don't have any regular outages, I also can't see how getting Powerwalls would be worth it for you. However, for the case of having emergency backup and going off grid, it would definitely be worth your while to keep up with the SGIP and state legislation to see if new incentives become available. It seems like when they offer incentive funds, they are gone very very quickly.
Deuce24
Member
Thanks for the input everyone. I guess more than anything I was checking to see if I could get a reasonable price on the backup system after all the rebates and tax incentives (like 2x PWs for $10k or something). It is definitely cool tech and I'd love to support Tesla more, but you all make a lot of sense and it probably isn't the best way to spend money at the moment. We'll probably add a Model X or Y in the next few years for my wife, and adding a few more panels then would probably be better for us anyway.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
Actually, if you are willing to pay a net of $10k for two PWs, that’s likely achievable if you go with a third party installer for around $20k, you get the SGIP rebate, and you claim the federal tax credit! Even if you just go with Tesla and forget SGIP, your net cost after federal tax credit might be in the neighborhood of $11k.
Deuce24
Member
The Tesla route may be more interesting then. The SGIP is kind of the hang up for me. I think it'd actually be better long term to just steal from the grid at night when it costs $0.12/kW and then use it during my peak/off peak times when it is $0.53 (summer) or $0.33 (winter). I'm on a Time of Use plan, and even with solar, in the summer due to having two AC units I am still sometimes using more energy than I'm producing (I work from home). I think the ROI on the panels could end up being better if I didn't use SGIP, but I'd really have to break down the numbers since for my hourly use to find that out.
I’m pretty sure it’s not SGIP that prevents you from sipping off the grid at night, but the federal ITC which requires it to be charged from solar to be considered a solar upgrade. Then you have to proportionally decrease your credit if you aren’t 100% solar and if you get below 75%, you lose the credit altogether. I’m not sure for how long this restriction applies though if you claim the credit.
I initially thought we would be cycling the battery by charging exclusively with cheap grid energy at night and discharging completely (even if not consuming it) during high rate periods under TOU. Or at least consuming it while still charging at night. This allows for the solar to go back to the grid during the day at shoulder rates rather that charging the Powerwall during that time.
Oh well. But at least with the time based control, it does a decent job applying the battery energy to consumption and getting it just about down to the reserve level by the end of the peak rate period.
With the IRS things are never certain, but the interpretation I've seen is that the proration only applies to commercial systems. For residential systems, all charging must be from solar. The time period of the restriction is 5 years.
It seems Tesla is enforcing the charging for all US installations anyway, so you might as well just take the ITC. I was originally planning to just do the SGIP, but given the restrictions in the software, there doesn't seem to be any reason not to take the ITC as well.
Deuce24
Member
Interesting. Definitely not something I'll likely pursue right now then. It doesn't make sense to feed the PWs off solar generation during the day that is making me $0.53 per kWh, only to use that stored energy at night when I only pay $0.12 per kWh when I charge my Model 3.
Most of my solar generation happens in the Part-Peak period with <20% happening in the Peak period. The Powerwall stores all the Part-Peak solar ($0.21/kWh Winter $0.26/kWh Summer) until the batteries are full and discharges it to offset household use in the Peak period ($0.34/kWh Winter $0.48/kWh Summer). Since the house usage is offset to zero during Peak, the solar generated during that period goes straight to the grid to earn NEM credits.
If you want to calculate how much you will save by using Powerwalls, find your average Peak period usage per day. If it is greater than your Powerwall usable storage, truncate it to your usable storage. If your solar generation is less than your peak usage and less than your battery storage, truncate the kWh to your average production. Then multiply this average kWh value by the difference in $/kWh price between Peak and Part-Peak. That is your average savings per day. You probably need to do this average monthly to get a good estimate.
When I was doing this kind of calculation before I actually got the Powerwalls, I overestimated my savings. My house only uses about 10kWh/day during Peak while I have 20kWh of usable energy (75% of 2 PWs) in my batteries. Also, my solar generation goes down to a max of 5kWh/day during the Winter. Rainy days are much less. So, lately, I have just been bouncing off the Reserve and not even making it half way through the Peak period on battery.
The biggest thing that some people don't notice is that if you have a relatively large solar system and you don't owe anything at true-up, there's nothing more to save by using Powerwalls. The exception to this is if you are on a CCA that pays you for all your surplus generation. Just remember that generation is only about 4 to 24 cents per kWh. The rest is transmission and distribution that the utility won't pay you for on your surplus.
Ulmo
Active Member
I had to contact Tesla several times to get feedback from them on the process, and I think I may have pushed them through a bit. I am one of the last SGIP applicants in my time period of application and installation being serviced, and finally I received two notices from Self Generation Program at PG&E via email within 20 minutes of each other today. The first one was
"We are pleased to inform you that we have received your SGIP Incentive Claim Form (ICF) package for Project ID: PGE-SGIP-2017-XXXX for XXX XXX. Please see below for the reservation details.", a list of values, then "
Next Steps:
· Pacific Gas and Electric will perform a detailed review of the ICF package within the next 10 business days to ensure all required documentation was submitted. Pacific Gas and Electric will contact you regarding any missing, incomplete, or invalid information, at which point you will have 30 business days from the date of the request email to resolve any issues.
· Once your ICF documentation is complete your project will be submitted for technical review.", and a Questions phone number.
Next Steps:
· Pacific Gas and Electric will perform a detailed review of the ICF package within the next 10 business days to ensure all required documentation was submitted. Pacific Gas and Electric will contact you regarding any missing, incomplete, or invalid information, at which point you will have 30 business days from the date of the request email to resolve any issues.
· Once your ICF documentation is complete your project will be submitted for technical review.", and a Questions phone number.
The email 20 minutes later said
"Great news! We are delighted to let you know that this SGIP project has been approved for an incentive payment:", a similar list of values, and "
The final incentive amount that XXX XXX will receive is based upon information provided in the Incentive Claim Form package and the results of the project/site inspection.
XXX XXX will receive one of the following incentive payment(s) :
1. Projects under 30kW rated capacity: $X,XXX.XX, the maximum incentive amount, as an upfront payment within 20 business days
2. Projects 30kW rated capacity and larger: 50% of $X,XXX.XX, the maximum incentive amount, as an upfront payment within 20 business days. The remaining 50% will be paid according to the guidelines of the Performance-Based Incentive (PBI) structure."
The final incentive amount that XXX XXX will receive is based upon information provided in the Incentive Claim Form package and the results of the project/site inspection.
XXX XXX will receive one of the following incentive payment(s) :
1. Projects under 30kW rated capacity: $X,XXX.XX, the maximum incentive amount, as an upfront payment within 20 business days
2. Projects 30kW rated capacity and larger: 50% of $X,XXX.XX, the maximum incentive amount, as an upfront payment within 20 business days. The remaining 50% will be paid according to the guidelines of the Performance-Based Incentive (PBI) structure."
I think the payment step is upcoming. From my vague memory, this takes less than a couple of months.
I find it interesting they decided not to schedule a site inspection of my installation, but it seems reasonable, since Tesla, PG&E, and my public web site have all documented copious telemetry, and Tesla had substantial installation design, engineering, and building permit documentation, as well as photographic documentation from multiple parties, so inspections could have proceeded using that evidence. After experience inspecting other installations in similar places and times by similar installers, they could have needed less review to come to similar conclusions they prior would have needed site inspections for.
I presume it doesn't hurt that my PowerWall 2 system has been performing fairly satisfactorily (not flawlessly, but close to it (e.g., I've occasionally documented some sensitive computers crashing when it switches over to backup, and I wish it had more software features and tighter more useful integration with my solar panels and inverter and electric car charger)).
Ulmo - That is great! I am now waiting to see about PG&E for a possible SGIP. When did you have a signed agreement for the Powerwalls? Or did they go by a reservation date? I keep hearing two conflicting reports. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
The battery only really helps in a backup situation or if you don’t have more room for panels.
Ideally we would be selling the off peak back at peak rates but we can’t so instead we are selling partial peak back for a lower differential. And you are only selling it back at the rate you consume vs just selling it all back until you hit the reserve.
Overall, I’m still happy with it. It’s fun and cool to use the app and see all the numbers. Wish the detailed charts and history went back more than 1 days though. We didn’t get it to truly pay for itself but rather to be green, have backup, and have fun.
Ideally we would be selling the off peak back at peak rates but we can’t so instead we are selling partial peak back for a lower differential. And you are only selling it back at the rate you consume vs just selling it all back until you hit the reserve.
Overall, I’m still happy with it. It’s fun and cool to use the app and see all the numbers. Wish the detailed charts and history went back more than 1 days though. We didn’t get it to truly pay for itself but rather to be green, have backup, and have fun.
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