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Powerwall 2 + UPS Connundrum - and solution

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Perhaps an option for off-grid operation. But I thought all grid-tied inverters (at least in California) had pretty strict shutdown requirements.

Spec and configuration can be different. In the USA, IEEE 1547 was established as the grid interconnect standard by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. Local jurisdictions may differ slightly but by and large any grid connected device in the US since '05 should be compliant. 1547 establishes limits on frequency, voltage, and how long a device can tolerate of out-of-spec conditions.

Devices like the Enphase IQ series are designed to work in all sorts of environments but can have their behavior changed via software configuration by applying different grid profiles. I am not in Puerto Rico but have applied the PR grid profile to my Enphase system and have my local utility profile on my Powerwall. Since the Powerwall sits in front of the PV system only the Powerwall is technically interconnected and required to be configured to meet my interconnection agreement - any devices, such as the PV, that are downstream can be configured in any way (at the risk of it behaving badly!).
 
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Adding to this thread.

I've noted the AC frequency from PW integrated inverter(s) is raised (in my case, to 63.677Hz, from 59.972) upon activating "Go Off Grid". (this from the self-reported JSON @ /api/meters/aggregates)

This causes both my CyberPower & APC (lithium) UPS to energize. Both claim a tolerance up to 63Hz.
I've requested Tesla change the gateway upper freq to 62.5Hz (that's as low as they offered).

I'm running 21.44 223a56cd

No additional offset yet in /api/site_info

Before Freq (Grid Tied)
After Freq (Off Grid)
 
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Adding to this thread.

I've noted the AC frequency from PW integrated inverter(s) is raised (in my case, to 63.677Hz, from 59.972) upon activating "Go Off Grid". (this from the self-reported JSON @ /api/meters/aggregates)

This causes both my CyberPower & APC (lithium) UPS to energize. Both claim a tolerance up to 63Hz.
I've requested Tesla change the gateway upper freq to 62.5Hz (that's as low as they offered).

I'm running 21.44 223a56cd

No additional offset yet in /api/site_info

View attachment 752748View attachment 752749

Seems like expected behavior. What was the Powerwall state of charge when you pulled those numbers?
 
Are there any inverters that won't shut down at 62.5 Hz? I know my string inverter will shut down at 60 +/- 0.5 Hz and I thought that smart inverters were less than 62 Hz. I thought these were compliance requirements.
They sell Powerwalls to customers with existing older systems. Some of these around me are running 15+ year old inverters, that are slower to react to and less sensitive to frequency changes.
 
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The Tesla Powerwall 2 (PW2) is an excellent protection against grid power outages, yet its design does require an additional Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) for any devices that are sensitive to even extremely brief power breaks.

While your fridge, microwave, most lights and other devices will likely not notice the 300-2000 millisecond relay switch-over (I'll admit I really don't know the typical Gateway relay cycle-over time as I've never been able to find Tesla specs on it) in case of a power outage, your sensitive electronics certainly will. In fact, only a few Hertz cycles loss will cause anything CPU related to fail.

Thus the need for at least a -short term- UPS to get sensitive electronic devices 'over the hump' of the power outage to final relay 'snap' into the internal house power grid and PW2 power feed. So far, so good. Almost any UPS can fill that bill and, in fact, since it is only needed for a second or two, the battery power for most are severe overkill for the task they perform while supporting the PW2.

However, the PW2 has a specific issue with most UPSs in a specific setting. I'll explain. If the PW2 is at 100% charge while the sun is shining and the user ALSO has solar panels, the PW2 will attempt to 'turn off' the inverters for those solar panels once inside the internal house power grid (which the relay broke from the grid operator no longer providing power). In order to do this, the PW2 will raise the Hertz cycle (in the US) from 60 to 65.

Now, I believe most electronic devices can handle a range of Hertz cycles (I actually have a call into Tesla PW2 support to confirm electronics working at 65 Hertz), including computers, routers, modems and other devices. Thus, they should work just fine while the PW2 is inhibiting the solar inverters from producing power by going to 65 Hz.

The problem is that MOST UPSs will only see power coming from the outlet as 'good' when it is 60 Hertz plus or minus THREE Hertz (thus 57-63 Hertz). Thus, when the PW2 is 100% charged and in a Backup situation with no grid input and solar panels that need to be inhibited, the PW2 will raise the frequency to 65 Hertz to inhibit the solar inverters - this power will then be considered 'bad' power to those UPSs. The UPSs will then simply run on their own battery power until they run out and the devices behind them will die at that time. All because they see power at 65 Hertz as unacceptable.

In an outage event that occurred with my PW2 earlier this week, while my PW2 was 100% charged and it was actively inhibiting the solar inverters by raising the frequency to 65 Hertz, my UPSs only lasted for 5-15 minutes (depending on the load) at which time they failed. Howevver, the PW2 inhibited the solar inverters for 30 minutes while discharging into the house. Since all of the computers / routers / switches / NASs / etc. (which consumed most of the power at that time) were behind UPS's, they didn't use the offered PW2 power (now at 65 Hertz and incompatible for pass-thru by the UPSs) and simply used up the batteries on the UPSs.

Thus the PW2 discharge was just for fridges and other phantom loads that slowly got it to 97% in a half hour. At that time, the PW2 decided it was OK to allow the solar inverters to create power and lowered the frequency back to 60 Hertz. The UPSs reacted by immediately charging their now-dead batteries, but the devices behind them were long dead.

BUT a solution was found that is as inexpensive as the APC and Trip-Lite UPSs I was using. It turns out that Minuteman UPSs can handle an input of 60 Hertz plus / minus 6 Hertz. Thus, it will see the 65 Hertz that the PW2 creates during those specific timeframes as acceptable pass-thru power. Thus the Minuteman should provide the conditioning to get over the short relay switch-over loss of power AND allow the PW2 65 Hertz power to then pass-thru the unit on to the devices, which will then enjoy the huge (comparative to that UPS at least) battery backup capability of the PW2.

The only testing I must do for all my electronics is if they will function with the 65 Hertz power and also function across frequency changes from 60 Hertz to 65 Hertz and back again. If the power supplies for my devices can handle those small changes without causing a crash, I have solved that problem.

Here is the Minuteman UPS I am going to be testing out next week:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015QOEP0K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here are the specs for the UPS that show it will see input at 60 Hertz - plus/minus 6 Hertz as acceptable power. Look at the Input Frequency Range:

Minuteman UPS - Entrust LCD Series

Although a grid loss at 100% PW2 power and during the day when solar inverters need to be inhibited by raising frequency to 65 Hertz is not a normal experience, this solution should provide the conditioning to get past the relay switch-over timeframe AND allow devices to use 65 Hertz power from the PW2.

I'll update this post when I know more about electronic devices working in a 65 Hertz environment. Testing will be occurring this weekend and next....
I would respectfully ask - are you speculating that this is a problem, or have you actually experienced this as a problem?

Reason I ask is that I've lost grid power many, many times and none of my electronics have ever noticed the failover to Powerwall. Ever. Not even the finicky microwave clock that resets to 12:00 if you look at it sideways.
 
I would respectfully ask - are you speculating that this is a problem, or have you actually experienced this as a problem?

Reason I ask is that I've lost grid power many, many times and none of my electronics have ever noticed the failover to Powerwall. Ever. Not even the finicky microwave clock that resets to 12:00 if you look at it sideways.

As I posted in the other thread, its more surprising that you have never seen it. Pretty much everyone in this thread has, and I can duplicate it pretty easily myself by waiting till my powerwalls are full and having a home load more than the PV, then turning off the main breaker.

If you have never seen it, its probably because you have never had a power outage when your home load was larger than your PV input, while your powerwalls were full.

The reason you wouldnt see it in that circumstance is because there is swap over time for the powerwalls, but if power is coming from your PV to cover the home loads, you wont see that swap time. Also, if your Powerwalls are already powering your home, there is no swap over.

Its when the powerwalls are full and the home load is more than the PV, and there is a power outage. How often that happens depends on PV size, home load, etc.
 
Adding to this thread.

I've noted the AC frequency from PW integrated inverter(s) is raised (in my case, to 63.677Hz, from 59.972) upon activating "Go Off Grid". (this from the self-reported JSON @ /api/meters/aggregates)

This causes both my CyberPower & APC (lithium) UPS to energize. Both claim a tolerance up to 63Hz.
I've requested Tesla change the gateway upper freq to 62.5Hz (that's as low as they offered).

I'm running 21.44 223a56cd

No additional offset yet in /api/site_info

View attachment 752748View attachment 752749
For completeness, here's a more accurate sampling of the OffGrid inverter performance vs Grid native freq, prior to Tesla's update.
Off Grid frequency
Grid frequency
 
My Enphase IQ7+ microinverters spec an "Extended frequency range" of 47-68 Hz, but still appear to shut down when the Powerwalls go to 65 Hz. Dunno why...


What’s the power profile set to? Mine was left at default by my installer.

I called enphase directly and they changed it to a Tesla Powerwall friendly profile.

Works much more smartly during an outage now.
 
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I submitted a request to lower the frequency on 12/22, someone responded on 12/29 that they received the request and would escalate it to Tier 2. Mentioned expected turnaround time is 10-14 days, but more delay could be expected due to the holidays. Didn't receive an email from them about it, but noticed the value was added to my PW on 1/14.

{"name":"soc_freq_droop_config_df_max","value":2.2}
 
As I posted in the other thread, its more surprising that you have never seen it. Pretty much everyone in this thread has, and I can duplicate it pretty easily myself by waiting till my powerwalls are full and having a home load more than the PV, then turning off the main breaker.

If you have never seen it, its probably because you have never had a power outage when your home load was larger than your PV input, while your powerwalls were full.

The reason you wouldnt see it in that circumstance is because there is swap over time for the powerwalls, but if power is coming from your PV to cover the home loads, you wont see that swap time. Also, if your Powerwalls are already powering your home, there is no swap over.

Its when the powerwalls are full and the home load is more than the PV, and there is a power outage. How often that happens depends on PV size, home load, etc.
I also haven’t noticed CPUs shutting down during the switch from grid to Powerwalls. I just got two Powerwall 2’s and Backup Gateway 2 installed and I don’t have solar. I simulated a blackout by turning off the main circuit breaker. Powerwalls kicked in immediately and my Intel desktop PC and Mac mini stayed on without a problem. We don’t use a lot of electricity though. Right now, the house is using 0.5kW.
 
I would respectfully ask - are you speculating that this is a problem, or have you actually experienced this as a problem?

Reason I ask is that I've lost grid power many, many times and none of my electronics have ever noticed the failover to Powerwall. Ever. Not even the finicky microwave clock that resets to 12:00 if you look at it sideways.

My oven clock reset last time I tried Off Grid