Powerwall 2 vs Powerplant P10: Sine Wave, etc. ?

[ElectricTundra]

Does anyone know how the output of a Powerwall will compare?

PerfectWave P10 Power Plant | PS Audio

AV guy has one of these spec'd for our new house. I'm not sure how critical it is to begin with (unlike Monster Cables it does make a noticeable difference but I'm debating if the difference is worth the price) and then wondering if power from the 2 or 3 Powerwalls that we'd have with solar tile roof would accomplish much or all of the same.

 

[doubleohwhat]

I honestly think this would be a personal preference kind of thing. I'm sure the powerwalls put out a clean sine wave. However, not all of your electricity will be coming directly from the powerwalls. In addition to the grid, you'll have whatever inverter the solar tiles use.

Personally, and this is just me, I'd go with a (cheaper) traditional power conditioner and put all of the AV equipment behind it. That said, if you're an audiophile and want the cleanest AC power you can get for your AV gear, then a regenerator (that's what this device is) might make sense.

 

[ElectricTundra]

What are the options for managing the output of powerwalls? Can I have some outlets (AV/HA racks, some computer outlets, etc.) always powered directly from the powerwall so that it acts as UPS and regenerator? Others only when necessary when there is no alternate source (solar, grid)?

 

[doubleohwhat]

What are the options for managing the output of powerwalls?

Currently, there aren't any options for managing anything. Until they update the app, there aren't any settings at all.

Can I have some outlets (AV/HA racks, some computer outlets, etc.) always powered directly from the powerwall so that it acts as UPS and regenerator?

The powerwalls wire directly into your load center/breaker box. A powerwall can definitely act as a UPS for a subset of breakers in a critical loads panel. However, to my knowledge, they're not designed to be a power regenerator just to make sure some outlets have a squeaky clean signal. Even if this is possible (I don't think it is), it's something that I can pretty much guarantee they don't support in the software right now.

Is the electricity coming from your provider so unclean that a power conditioner won't work? Personally, I'm rather fond of these for small setups:
APC J35B A/V Power Conditioner with Battery Backup and AVR J35B

And these for AV racks (you may need more than one):
APC J10 Home Theater Power Conditioner & Battery J10BLK B&H

 

[ElectricTundra]

Thanks. My understanding of the APC stuff is that it normally provides protected grid power and switches over to battery in an outage and so does not provide a clean sine wave (except when it is on battery). Powerwall may be similar in which case it would not be a replacement for a regenerator. If, OTOH, it can run off of battery at all times then I assume it would produce a clean sine wave (assuming a reasonably good inverter)?

 

[doubleohwhat]

My understanding of the APC stuff is that it normally provides protected grid power and switches over to battery in an outage and so does not provide a clean sine wave (except when it is on battery).

The units I linked to above are dedicated A/V power conditioners in addition to battery backups.

Ex:
"Eliminates electromagnetic and radio frequency interference (EMI/RFI) as a source of audio-video signal degradation."

Powerwall may be similar in which case it would not be a replacement for a regenerator.

It's definitely not a replacement for a 24/7 power regenerator.

If, OTOH, it can run off of battery at all times then I assume it would produce a clean sine wave (assuming a reasonably good inverter)?

I don't believe this is a designed use case for powerwalls.

Basically, if you want a regenerator then that's what you'll need to purchase. However, if a power conditioner is good enough then I would look at the APC units. I don't believe a powerwall is going to offer what you're looking for with this use case scenario.

 

[miimura]

A Double Conversion UPS is basically the same thing as the regenerator listed by the original poster. APC makes these in their Smart-UPS Online product line. There is zero transfer time because it is continuously charging the battery and inverting the output power from the battery. However, it is less efficient than a normal standby UPS because of the double conversion.

The other good use for a double conversion UPS is to clean up the dirty power from a standby generator. A Tesla won't charge from most conventional standby generators because the frequency is not stable enough and waveform is not clean. If you really need to charge your car from your generator during a power outage, a double conversion UPS would do the trick. You would need a pretty large one like 5kVA or 8kVA and you would have to change the default configuration from 208VAC to 240VAC.

 

[jbcarioca]

I honestly think this would be a personal preference kind of thing. I'm sure the powerwalls put out a clean sine wave. However, not all of your electricity will be coming directly from the powerwalls. In addition to the grid, you'll have whatever inverter the solar tiles use.

Personally, and this is just me, I'd go with a (cheaper) traditional power conditioner and put all of the AV equipment behind it. That said, if you're an audiophile and want the cleanest AC power you can get for your AV gear, then a regenerator (that's what this device is) might make sense.

Actually a household electricity supply provided from a "pure sine wave" inverter will have the same quality as will a "power conditioner" and will be greatly more efficient. The power conditioner acts to convert typical dirty public power to "pure sine wave" or something close. Therefore there is no need for a power conditioner if you directly source household power through the batteries and PSW inverter. Factually none of us can say what the PowerWalls provide because Tesla has not yet unlisted full specifications as far as I know. Anyway I cannot find them.

This subject is very important to me. I do want pure power and I want PowerWalls but the precise specifications are crucial for me to decide.

 

[ElectricTundra]

The units I linked to above are dedicated A/V power conditioners in addition to battery backups.
Ex:
"Eliminates electromagnetic and radio frequency interference (EMI/RFI) as a source of audio-video signal degradation."

I understand. These still do nothing for the sine wave though? And that is critical.

Update: Some interesting scopes on UPS's When do I need a pure sine wave UPS?

Some of those look pretty ugly.

 

[doubleohwhat]

I'd give Tesla a call to confirm whether or not the powerwall 2 will do what you want. Based on what we've seen so far, I don't think it will. However, only Tesla has the full specs at the moment.

If they confirm that the powerwall won't do what you need then I'd just go with whatever your AV guy recommends provided it has good reviews and a reasonable price tag (well, reasonable for AV gear).

 

[ElectricTundra]

and a reasonable price tag (well, reasonable for AV gear).

Yep. $4k for a clean sine wave.

 

[shs1]

FWIW, the APC S20 produces a pure sine wave when running under battery backup operation. It is also an autotransformer, a line filter and has multiple switchable AC banks. See review here: APC S20 Power Conditioner with Battery Backup - HomeTheaterHifi.com

I have been using one for about 10 years now with my AV stuff and it has been great as it has enough battery run time, with all components and projector going, to give me time for a proper shutdown to protect the projector bulb, etc. and certainly covers the time till the generator can kick in. It is getting a bit creaky though and is pretty big and I have recently been wondering if I get a PowerWall 2, do I really need the battery back up feature...